Computer forums - charter change suggestion

seamus

This is mainly aimed at the mods of Computers and Windows, but obviously everyone's input is welcomed.

I'm becoming increasingly annoyed at the offers of help that consist solely of "Get Firefox" or "Stop using IE" or "change browser", including a link.

Now, don't get me wrong, I love firefox, I rarely use IE, but this mantra is irritating. WE GET IT ALREADY. Am I ranting? Good. Then I'll continue.

I have a troubleshooting background, which is probably why this pisses me off so much. Problem solving does not consist of switching software. Suggesting that they switch browser when they have a spyware problem doesn't fix the problem, it just ignores it. That's utterly unhelpful. It's exactly as helpful as suggesting that someone switch to Unix/Linux when Windows crashes on them.

So please make suggesting an alternative browser without any other suggestion a bannable offence. No Mercy.

</end_rant>

aidan_walsh

I'll support that... Bloody fanboys...

Bass.exe

Ha, I bet that was 'cause of my post.

No, switching to Firefox won't solve any current spyware problems... but it WILL help prevent future spyware problems. Note the word "Help". Spyware is still bound to infect the computers of Firefox users, but in far less quantities. Thus, my previous post may have been good advice to someone who perhaps doesn't know what Firefox is.
I understand where you are coming from, you've seen it all hundreds of times. But not everyone has. Just remember that...

Edit: Also - :P, or similar generally impiles a joke.

seamus

Bass.exe wrote:

Ha, I bet that was 'cause of my post.

Just the catalyst.

No, switching to Firefox won't solve any current spyware problems... but it WILL help prevent future spyware problems. Note the word "Help". Spyware is still bound to infect the computers of Firefox users, but in far less quantities. Thus, my previous post may have been good advice to someone who perhaps doesn't know what Firefox is.
I understand where you are coming from, you've seen it all hundreds of times. But not everyone has. Just remember that...

I'm well aware of that. And I've no problem with someone as part of a post, suggesting "Once this is solved, switching to Firefox will help stop this occuring in future". It's the single-line posts such as yours that annoy me so much

Edit: Also - :P, or similar generally impiles a joke.

Except that it's no longer funny, cheeky or cute

SantaHoe

From the windows board charter:

No Off-Topic Advocacy: When someone asks a question about their current browser/mailer/etc, either answer the question or don't post. If they want an alternative, they'll ask for it. Off-topic advocacy will be sent to the Recycle Bin.

There was a big fuss kicked up over this before.

If it irritates you so much seamus, you could always try mozilla... I find I get about 30% less annoyed by posts while using it.

Bass.exe

Fair enough.... I admit it, I posted a single-line post, but then I immediatly went and editied the post to include

Note: May not solve your original problem. But get it anyway. :P

because I figured this guy may not realise what Firefox is... Originally my intent was to tease him for not using Firefox in the first place(Yes, I am a Firefox fanboy, but there is a reason, it's far superior to IE)... but then I thought "Maybe he's never heard of it" and added the other line.
So, apologies to yourself, and I think I would support perhaps a less drastic measure... 3 strikes and you're out type of thing. But only for, as you said, the 1 line mantras.

Edit: Ooh, er, should have read the charter more carefully... I skimmed it and missed that. It shan't occur again.

Hobart

I would agree, having been the "victim" of a get Mozilla/Firefox reply some time ago, while being told that the poster had the answer to my query but was unwilling to give it to me until I decided to change my browser. My browser was/is Mozilla and I was asking a general ie query.

However, as we are on the subject of change in the comp => os area could I suggest that we break the catergories down further. When I initially looked at the comp area I could see no clear area for specific application issues. I would also suggest that as quite a number of queries seem to be on browsers would it be an idea to have a browsers section? My 2c.

Bass.exe

I support a browser forum. But does it go under Web? Nets/Comms? Hmmm....

SantaHoe

seamus wrote:

This is mainly aimed at the mods of Computers and Windows, but obviously everyone's input is welcomed.

Eh, is it just me? or are there no mods setup for the Windows forum?
Same with the Audio/Video forum... there are no names in the little moderators list at the bottom of the page.
"Forum Leaders" doesn't mention them either.
I know these boards had moderators at some point up until the upgrade... although afaik Dustaz resigned as mod of A/V, but where did the Windows mods go? o_O

quarryman

this really is a rant isn't it seamus? People are always going to suggest go get this or go install that. Are you suggesting the charter should include "Please don't suggest installing new software to get rid of the problem?

To be honest if I need a feature (and this doesn't just apply to Internet browsers) and i can't find it or isn't easilt accesible I sometimes find it easier to switch to a program that does. But that's just me. Sometimes avoiding the problem can be quicker.

so on that note:

So please make suggesting an alternative browser without any other suggestion a bannable offence. No Mercy.

i can't say i agree with this.

sure, point it out in the charter but don't make it bannable.

my 2¢

aidan_walsh

I'm not so sure is a browser forum necessary, as the most of the queries that regard browsers end up being about malware in the end. Any technical queries usually involve programming questions, and end up in that section. Usual, "where can I" questions can stay in computers.

SantaHoe

quarryman wrote:

Are you suggesting the charter should include "Please don't suggest installing new software to get rid of the problem?

It essentially does already... check out the Windows board charter.

quarryman wrote:

To be honest if I need a feature (and this doesn't just apply to Internet browsers) and i can't find it or isn't easilt accesible I sometimes find it easier to switch to a program that does. But that's just me. Sometimes avoiding the problem can be quicker.

Yep same here, if feature x on program y is a nightmare to get working, and switching to program z is going to cut hours off setting this up, then it's a worthy enough suggestion imo.

quarryman wrote:

sure, point it out in the charter but don't make it bannable.

Banning is a bit harsh alright, the Windows charter mentioned the recycle bin, which I think is more level-headed.

I can see how this is annoying for people, especially when the person who suggested it comes across all condecending, but personally I'd prefer someone suggest an alternate piece of software instead of me sitting there wondering why nobody has replied... alternate software is a good last resort suggestion and with the exception of fan-boys suggestions are made with all the best intentions.

CuLT

Hmm, no mod box for Windows...

though I'm fairly sure dahamsta mods it.

Sherifu

It would be ok to see it once in a thread, every few threads but its in every spyware thread a few times. Getting very old.
Ordinary non IT no it alls may not know/want/care about firefox.

Chalk

im not sure

fair enough whiny fanboys etc etc...
but if someone came in and said i keep virii what should i do.
is it bad form to advise them to get an antivirus or should we talk them through removal of the original virus and let them go.

you may argue this as a bad comparison
but any pc with firefox installed is a lot safer than one using ie
thers not much point saying get adaware and run it daily when you just as well say get firefox and run adaware monthly

basically i think the charter should say before you ask a question update your os, update your firewall, update your antivirus, update your spyware protection run all of the above twice, install firefox, google for a solution and then consider posting
just my 2c

Sherifu

Chalk wrote:

im not sure

fair enough whiny fanboys etc etc...
but if someone came in and said i keep virii what should i do.
is it bad form to advise them to get an antivirus or should we talk them through removal of the original virus and let them go.

Too right they're whiny.
I know they're only trying to help.

Chalk wrote:

you may argue this as a bad comparison
but any pc with firefox installed is a lot safer than one using ie
thers not much point saying get adaware and run it daily when you just as well say get firefox and run adaware monthly

basically i think the charter should say before you ask a question update your os, update your firewall, update your antivirus, update your spyware protection run all of the above twice, install firefox, google for a solution and then consider posting
just my 2c

Or a sticky dedicated to spyware/adware and/or browsing though i know there are a lot of stickies in the forum already.

kaimera

afaik, there is no mod for windows this long time. dahamsta quit for some reason or another.

dahamsta

SantaHoe wrote:

No Off-Topic Advocacy: When someone asks a question about their current browser/mailer/etc, either answer the question or don't post. If they want an alternative, they'll ask for it. Off-topic advocacy will be sent to the Recycle Bin.

The guy that wrote that is a frickin' genius man. Frickin' genius!

*koff*

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Hobart

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

I don't think that its the defensive attitude that people are having is the problem at all. I believe that the crux of the issue is that people are being dismissed, by some people, with the answer ditch ie and use xyz, it's superior, when all people are looking for is an answer.

Capt'n Midnight

OFF TOPIC - can we get a button so people can tick which version of windows they are using.. - That really annoys me 'cos while the GUI is similar there is a lot of inconsistancy under the bonnet. /RANT

Since a complete download of [insert name of popular non IE browser] is smaller than an average months security patches for IE it makes sense to ask people to setup it up when they have "strange" IE problems , also means they have a backdoor that can download IE patches when IE flakes out. Maybe put that bit in a sticky for IE probems

Of course if a ban on one liner snide comments came into effect would we blame Microsoft because they are the ones who are ultimatley responsible ? (or would this lead to a rash of annoying sigs - time may tell.)

PS. to avoid phishing close ALL browser windows before going into your financial site, since all the common browsers are vunerable (including cute little fluffy ones)

seamus

Hobart wrote:

I believe that the crux of the issue is that people are being dismissed, by some people, with the answer ditch ie and use xyz, it's superior, when all people are looking for is an answer.

That's *exactly* it Hobart.

"I'm having a problem with my Punto, every time I turn a corner, an awful screeching comes from the wheels"

"Ah, ditch the Punto man and buy a Fiesta, those Puntos are crap".

Useless.

Chalk

seamus wrote:

That's *exactly* it Hobart.

"I'm having a problem with my Punto, every time I turn a corner, an awful screeching comes from the wheels"

"Ah, ditch the Punto man and buy a Fiesta, those Puntos are crap".

Useless.

its not really the same ,

if i said "i have a lada with a corroded petrol tank and loose wheels, what should i do?"
it would be reasonable to say ditch the lada get a fiesta,

using ie as browser if your pc is not properly maintained, ie just an average user, WILL lead to problems.

its not a matter of fixing ie, as its flaws cant be fixed, if your ie isnt up to date, your unlikely to continue updating it after i say update ie, leading to more problems in the future, somehting like firefox will update itself without taking half an hour and restarting you computer twice - a recent update of ie caused this on my xp machine.

im not a firefox fanboy - it has niggles that p1ss me off no end but as part of a security solution i would rate as integral as a firewall

dahamsta

Chalk wrote:

it would be reasonable to say ditch the lada get a fiesta

Your own example is flawed, because we're talking about security here primarily. If we're going to use your example it should run something like this: The Lada was open when I bought it so I never lock it, but someone keeps getting in and taking my stuff. Because the flaw is not so much the application, but the user's handling of the application.

adam

damien

kaimera wrote:

dahamsta quit for some reason or another.

Drama queenism.

seamus

damien.m wrote:

Drama queenism.

The ironing is delicious

Chalk

similarly your own example should more along the lines of the car came without doors and somebody keeps getting in and taking my stuff.

ie does not have a "safe" setting, it has to be combined with pop up blockers, os updates, activex blockers and whatever else, all separate programs.
firefox and adblock etension does all that and more in an install thats 1/16th the size of ie alone.

so to the example:
if yonder lada with no doors is going to cost more to have doors added and said will keep falling off [constant updates] then owner should be encouraged to change to cheaper, less troublesome and more econimical car

damien

seamus wrote:

The ironing is delicious

No argument here.

It's a Cork / IrelandOffline thing.

CuLT

I propose a "Chalk, dahamsta and seamus" forum.

This forum would be a cauldron of wit.

Supporters?

(it's less of a ridiculous idea than most of the forum suggestions, that have been posted in here, THE WRONG FORUM, in the last while).

stevenmu

I think part of the problem is that it's one of a group of things that come up over an over again. A sticky could be put up especially for common browser issues but there's probably too many other things like this that equally deserve stickys. I wonder if it'd be possible to have an FAQ subforum of computers that only mods of the computer forum could post to ? There could then be a sticky, or have it in the charter, that people should search the FAQs before posting a question. There could then be a thread in this for browser issues, in which it could be noted that many people would recommend Firefox/Opera/Whatever over IE. Mods could ask for submissions from people to go in the faq's when they notice a particular issue comes up a lot (the one I've noticed lately is people asking about buying stuff in the US) and cherry-pick the answers they feel are most appropriate.

SantaHoe

dahamsta wrote:

Your own example is flawed, because we're talking about security here primarily. If we're going to use your example it should run something like this: The Lada was open when I bought it so I never lock it, but someone keeps getting in and taking my stuff.

In fairness, most people haven't a bogs notion how to secure IE and would be scratching their head and furrowing their brows at the mention of ActiveX... I don't think any comparison can be drawn with locking a car door, we're just confusing the issue here.

dahamsta wrote:

Because the flaw is not so much the application, but the user's handling of the application.

IE touts a certain level of functionality, any user could be forgiven for assuming they could safely use these features without being hijacked by malware.
I don't think it's the users fault that security holes exist.
Granted, if a box pops up asking "Do you want to install mega-international-pr0n-dialler?" - clicking YES would be the users fault, but hijackings can happen without the user putting a foot wrong.

seamus wrote:

That's *exactly* it Hobart.

"I'm having a problem with my Punto, every time I turn a corner, an awful screeching comes from the wheels"

"Ah, ditch the Punto man and buy a Fiesta, those Puntos are crap".

Useless.

Here we go again with the bad analogies...
[a] Replacing a car costs money and is a major pain in the tits... switching browsers is a 10 minute job that costs nothing.
People are already aware of the existance of alternate cars... this isn't always the case with browsers, I've met people who think IE5/6 is all there is.
Although I see what you're getting at, the dismissive attitude... yeah it's ignorant, as much as a post consisting of nothing but "RTFM" is ignorant.
But that's not to say the suggestion is a bad one, it's just badly delivered.
Rephrase "RTFM" to "I'd say it's in the manual somewhere, these things usualy are.", and already it seems less condecending and dismissive.

Maybe try to nail down exactly what you find annoying about it and tackle that area specifically, instead of calling for bans on people who are genuinly trying to help.

dahamsta

Chalk wrote:

ie does not have a "safe" setting, it has to be combined with pop up blockers, os updates, activex blockers and whatever else, all separate programs.

This is FUD, plain and simple. That's me being polite btw, what I really want to say is that it's complete bollocks, but I'm far too polite to say that. Oops...

As I've said on Boards a dozen times or more, I've run on Windows and IE (or IE variants) for not far off half a decade, and my machine has been compromised 2-3 times. All instances were human error, i.e. I opened an attachment without thinking, or clicked Ok when I should have clicked Cancel. On each occasion I blamed myself, because it was my fault.

A fully-patched and secured Internet Explorer is just as safe and secure as Firefox, with one small exception: One IE expolit has yet to be patched. Which is shameful, but it's not the end of the world.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't think we can put the full load of the blame on the shoulders of the user. I'm a techie, I know why I have to patch, I know how to patch, and I do patch almost religiously.

However Firefox has to be patched too. All software does. How many Firefox users will go to Tools > Options > Advanced > Software Update > Check Now when the first exploit comes out? 75%? 50%? 25?

I'll tell you how many: About 1% more than Internet Explorer users. If that. And that's only because a lot of early Firefox users are techies.

Oh, and Mulley? Bite me.

adam

Sherifu

YA! what dahamsta said, except i'm too lazy/inarticulate to say it.
A fully patched IE with the proper settings + common sense
with regard to attachments and activex and popups(which has
become easier since sp2) is safe browsing!

Chalk

dahamsta wrote:

A fully-patched and secured Internet Explorer is just as safe and secure as Firefox, with one small exception: One IE expolit has yet to be patched. Which is shameful, but it's not the end of the world.

one?
thats a fairly accurate number, i doubt even bill gates would be sure enough to call that one.

we use ie in work , here and in my last job, without the users ability to install protective software or the availability of sp2 [win2k here] almost all pcs have wonderful spyware installed, i get popups on most pages of boards because of a number of background programs running , and thats with 99.9% of the web blocked by whatever net nanny program is running on the server [ im not a techie, thats my explanation of how servers work]

my parents at home have a win98 macjhine with ie and os up to date [ i do it for them] no matter what i did they got crap without fail, so i put firefox on , changed the icon, hid ie ,the browser takes longer to load but there are a lot less problems,

as you said yourself firefox gets patched quicker because tech people use it and its open source. plus it can update itself in a few seconds/minutes depeending on your connection without a reboot.

anyway now im wandering into fanboyism myself.
so i think ill leave it a this. anyway this is a discussion about a charter not firefox v ie :rolleyes:

ps im all for that seamus dahamsta and chalk forum

Blub2k4

I support what Seamus said 100%.

It is glib and offhand to suggest a change of browser when someone has a problem.
If you dont know how to fix the problem with the materials at hand then stay quiet you are not being helpful.

Covering up your lack of technical knowledge with a stupid suggestion is not smart even if your suggestion would sweep the problem under the carpet, that is all that you have done.

I use Firefox by the way but find that its handling of cookies leaves a lot to be desired, it helps to keep adware out but opens up a whole new can of worms when security cookies are being passed between the browser and a web proxy for example.

dahamsta

Chalk wrote:

one?
thats a fairly accurate number, i doubt even bill gates would be sure enough to call that one.

Now you're just being anal. To the best of my knowledge, one known exploit exists that has yet to be patched by Microsoft. I read the security mailing lists, do you?

As to all your exploited machines, that demonstrates that the people using those machines haven't secured and patched their computers correctly, and as I said, the same will likely happen if they use Firefox.

adam

Chalk

i dont read security mailings , they wouldnt interest me in the slightest, i just know what has made improvements in my own experience,
as you say these pcs are not patched or even remotely up to date, and even if we wanted to could not install any software on to them.[ if your trying to suggest i dont patch my machines , forget it]

other than that , with regards to the charter, people come here for free advice, with no moderater in place and with no one being paid to do anything we can only expect them to be able to help themsleves as much as we help them. if every thread turns into an argument as this had then the computers forum is not a place that will prosper with return users.
besides as ive posted before using firefox is part of an overall control of a problem not the be all and end all,
if someones technical knowledge extends as far as suggesting a browser and nothing else then im sure its obvious to anyone that there help is going to limited.

damm it im rambling again