Wood Pellet burner

daveg

Has anyone heard or does anyone use a wood pellet system for heating their home? Any info would be much appreciated.

Occidental

Using Multi Fuel/Wood burning Stove which burns pellets, if that's of any use.

Pat

Lex Luthor

they did a piece on "About The House" this week on wood pellet burners. Apparently a fraction of the costs of oil or gas to run. Not sure if the show is repeated on the weekend though.

I found these links that should get you started..

http://www.rte.ie/tv/ecoeye/2004/prog6/woodenergy.html
http://www.rte.ie/tv/aboutthehouse/series4/13itemb.html

yop

I am not dave but I hear they are a great job.
I would suggest googling, but also
http://www.selfbuild.co.uk/
http://www.irishbuildingindustry.ie/
http://www.iaosb.com/
http://www.ebuild.co.uk/cgi-bin/forums/discus.pl

Mark0

I am also thinking of using wood pellet boiler....From what I hear they are good and use a renewable energy source...I am keen to not use fossil fuels...I am planning to use Ground Source Heat Pump to heat the UFH (UFH pipes already laid).......thinking of using wood pellet boiler for the hot water.
Not really sure what would be best.......could I get hot water from the Ground Source Heat Pump as wall as heating the UFH.

Some links I found....http://www.greenheat.ie/
http://www.nps.ie/index.htm

Occidental

Mark,

Heat pumps will work fine for hot water heating. Various methods depending on systems being used.

tinofapples

I asked a salesman in Ganleys in Athlone about the Wood Pellet burners on Saturday .

He didn't know much about them and said the systems could only be got in the North , the pellets too.

Mentioned that he had heard they produce some amount of energy compared to conventional methods .

25-30% more than oil boliers.

But as I said he didn't knwo an awful lot .

rooferPete

Hi Everyone,

I happen to know there is an outlet opening in Dunboyne for Pellet Stoves and fuel, the new plant for manufacturing Pellet fuel should be up and running by February 2005.

The quality stoves operate at 80% efficiency, as opposed to open fires being 20% effecient.

Fuel costs will be approximatley 30% cheaper than gas or oil, with the higher effeciency built in the numbers are closer to 50%.

Yes I'm getting one

bbbaldy

I am also going to get a wood pellet boiler,
I wanted to get a viable alternative to oil central heating, most alternatives I researched were in my opinion, not viable.
Wood pellet heating makes very good financial sense.
SEI have a cost comparison on their web site of oil versus wood pellet, the numbers add up favourably whatever way you look at it.

Information is hard to get on the wood pellet boilers that are presently on the market. (got one brochure from an irish supplier that was in dutch with no translation).

tinofapples

I heard from a friend last week that Galway Gas @ Briar Hill Business Park supplied Wood Pellet Stove's & Boilers.

I went along Sat afternoon with my fiance , met a nice guy there who talked us through the operation of the Pellet Stove which they had up and running there.

We told him we would probably be interested in the Pellet Boiler and he showed us one of those , although not in operation we were both very impressed and at this stage we are probably sold on the idea.

They are being supplied by a company in Dublin (Celtic Flame) and the bolier is and Enviro EF Thermo.

He told us that a tonne of pellets should do us for a year at a cost of circa 250 yo-yo's.

He also mentioned that a new pellet manufacturing plant has been set up in Enniskillen.

rooferPete

Hi,

If you are not in a hurry I know the Dunbboyne outlet will be carrying three different manufacturers products, it might be worth the wait.

Kind Regards,

Peter Crawley,

www.crawleyandsons.com

tinofapples

Pete ,
I'm in no hurry at all. We're waiting for PP so we have at least 2/3 months before considering such things.

Dave

Goll Mac Morna

I too am interested in in stalling a Pellet Stove or a Pellet Boiler.
To look at some types you can look up
www.greenheat.com
www.froeling.com
www.rika.at
The Austrians seem to have developed a good standard of stoves and boilers.
All initial problems seem to have been ironed out by experience/ usage over the years.
On the FROLING site there is a boiler called the PELLETHERM P2 this one is useful as you can burn split logs in it in an emergency..

BALCAS (BALlyCASsidy Sawmills) are producing a massive amount of pellets close to Enniskillen.
Galtee fuels are also importing pellets

tinofapples

BALCAS

That's the name of the company I was told about alright. Seems they are producing massive amounts for export but will also have Pellets for local customers.

pollyantic

I saw a pellet stove in action in the RDS and there was a phenominal amount of heat out of it for the amount of pellets it was burning.
Does anyone know if you could replace your existing oil burner and if so
what would this cost.

tinofapples

Of course you can , that's what alot of people are doing.

Nukem

Sorry about this in a rush. Kust read this off the bulletin board

Here is probably the best site for energy in Ireland.
Energy Engineering is becoming huge and there is great savings in it

SEI search on Wood Pellt

Also attached a list companies that supply boilers/stoves.......

Have more info if you want

Nukem

rooferPete

Hi Pollyantic,

You can replace your oil boiler or link the pellet boiler into it, that leaves you the option of two fuels.

The cost depends on the output you need from your boiler, a stove with boiler combined will cost in the order of €3700-00, the boiler in a garage should be less because you are not getting the fancy finish.

Nukem

Was talking to someone who is getting one and a good point was have a place to keep the pellets dry. The moisture of the pellets will effect the boiler

bbbaldy

I was quoted €8000 for a boiler to heat a 2500ft/2 house, I would love to hear other prices and compare, it was for a 'Twin Heat' boiler, it looks great but is the price right.

tinofapples

I was quoted 3,500 yo-yo's for the EF Thermo boiler and as we are buidling our house it shouldn't any more to install than an oil system . Our house will be 2100 square ft and the boiler will heat up to 17 radiators.

yop

I have seen these alright but never seen one in action. I am big into getting the house running as efficent as possible (or as cheap )!
That seems like a good price 3.5k euro,
Only 250 euro for the year to run the house on pellets, that seems excellent, are you sure that is the right price.
So you are talking about 3.5k to install, then 250 euro for a years supply of pellets.]
I presume it will give u sufficent heat for ur UFH??? what about domestic??

Is there servicing on these guys???
How are the fired up (Firelighters?? )
Are there ashes?

Not really sure what would be best.......could I get hot water from the Ground Source Heat Pump as wall as heating the UFH.

You can alright, you need a "domestic water kit" installed with the heat pump though



cheers

Macy

yop wrote:

How are the fired up (Firelighters?? )

This I always wondered about. Obviously if those costings are right it seems excellent, however could you have a timed ignition as per oil? Too late for me, but still interested for future reference...

rooferPete

Hi,

€250.00 per year doesn't sound quiet right I'm all for a good system but the supplier should at least be honest with the estimated fuel use, the average unit will use 1 tonne of pellets to your average fill of oil.

Very few houses over 1500 sq feet will use less than three fills a year and that would be for a very well insulated house, the real difference is the cost difference between oil and pellet fuel and the efficiency.

The SEI are bringing in standards for suppliers of the units, they must have an after sales service, they must have an in house service department and the unit must be approved.

Some units were bought on the internet and are not performing as they should, because some of the manufacturers are trying to serve all fuels like corn as well as pellet fuel, also parts are very difficult to get for some imported units.

Admittedly they don't need many parts as they are simple enough in the way they work but like all heating appliances the do need servicing.

The good units are fired up using built in starters similar to piezzo starters for gas boilers, the amount of ash is so small that the ash pan doesn't need to be emptied very often, the ash is pure fertiliser and can be spread on the garden so no waste.

Like any boiler you need to check the output, 17 radiators sounds a lot of heating power is needed probably close on 140,000 btu's for comfort.

tinofapples

Pete ,
I was and still am sceptical about the 250 a year load too. He said a tonne of pellets should do the year. I can't recall what size the bag of pellets was but think it was either 10/15 kg and priced @ 5 yo-yo's. Using them figures :

10kg a Bag @ €5 - 1 tonne (Years Supply ) = €500

15kg A Bag @ €5 - 1 tonne (Years Supply) = €333.33

I think you'll find most salesmen tend to exagerate.

Here's some of the feature's of the Boiler we were looking at :

EF-Thermo Water Boiler Stove

Silent Running Mode operation
50kg Hopper
27 kWh (92,000 BTU) Total Output
24.6 kWh (75,000 BTU) Water Heating Output
2.4 kWh (7,000 BTU) Room Heating Output
Over 90% efficient
Weight 145kg
Pressure and Water temp. gauges next to controls
Built in pump and expansion tank (8 litre)
In and out water pipes ¾”
Optional wall thermostat
Measurements: 90cm x 50cm x 50cm


Enviro pellet stoves offer clean efficient heat at the flick of a switch. The EF-Thermo model incorporates a built-in boiler allowing for simple connection to a radiator system to provide heat and hot water.

It is the most powerful built-in boiler pellet stove available on the market today at a fraction of the cost of lower powered models from other manufacturers.

SoreHead

Ok, Let me try to answer some of your questions and concerns.

The wood pellets are currently being imported from Europe and previously Canada by 4 companies in Ireland. Balcas have run into delays but should commence production next month. I would expect usable pellets bagged in a couple of months after that. The quoted price is €150 per tonne loose bulk delivered with another €20 or so for bagged. I'm not sure if this is ex-VAT. If it is the rate is 13.5%.

2 tonnes of pellets is roughly equivelant to 1000 litres of oil. At current prices that is €500 for pellets compared to around €550 for oil. When Balcas are up and running the savings will start properly. The price they quote is quaranteed for 5 years.

You can run a pellet boiler alone or in conjunction with another system. The only requirement is that you have a minimum of 0.5bar in the system as they are closed system (pressurised system) boilers.

The 17 radiators quote came from a number of plumbers that use the simple calculation of 5000btu per rad. The EF-Thermo is 95,000btu. It has been removed now and states 1500-2000sqft house which seems to be the norm to allow for bad quality pellets which will affect heat.

There are systems available ranging in price from €3,400 to around the €10,000 mark for small domestic and the style has little bearing on the price. The cheapest I've seen are the EF-Thermo sold by Celtic Flame and the boiler sold by Green Heat. The Green Heat one is a 10kW model and the EF-Thermo is 25kW to the water. The Green Heat one looks very nice too which is a plus and that's also to show I'm not biased towards the EF-Thermo (even though I'm the importer).

Pat O'Sullivan is the main man in there and very nice too. He is one of the other importers of pellets also and one of the first to do so in Ireland for demonstration purposes. He's one of the biggest importers of fuel (coal etc) in the country and has long been saying pellets are the future and even put his money where his mouth is. For information, I believe he brings in 8mm pellets, we bring in 6mm. These are the 2 most common domestic sizes.

Another good importer and good guy is Rudiger Trautmann (is that how it's spelt?) in Solar Energy Ireland in Sligo. He does the Kuntzil (definitely not how it's spelt) boilers in the €6-7k range. He's a good hands-on man and can give good advice on solar/underfloor also.

To be honest, from experience, Irish people are a couple of years away from being ready for the boilers. The stoves are very straight forward and they have flown out but the boilers are so new that they get blamed for everything if there's a problem. I've called to 7 boilers that we supposedly not working and all but one was a plumbing issue or something to do with a house thermostat/control system :mad: but noone will believe you until you go down and prove it. Not sure about you lot but I don't have that sort of time on my hands.

The cheapest way to buy the pellets is directly from the importer.

Hopefully that will have answered most of your questions. If not we'll be at the homes show in Kilkenny on the 25,26,27 Feb and will have a number of models there (not the leggy blond type though). Also, our retailers around the country have them working and reference sites too. I believe Pat also has a couple of models up and running for demo although I'm not sure if he's doing any shows in the near future. Give him a call and ask and tell him I'm singing his praises.

Feel free to contact me for more info. general or otherwise. I will give you full and honest opinions on the technology or products available and will never knock anyone elses product. If I don't know I'll tell you.

yop

Great post SoreHead, very informative thanks

offroadannie

Sorehead, do you have details of show in Kilkenny - whereabouts etc

Thanks for information

SoreHead

The show is in the Kilkenny Arena 25,26 & 27
I'm not sure where that is but I'm supposed to be getting free tickets as part of the stand package so if anyone wants one you can email me directly or give me an address on here and I'll send them on.

info@celticflame.ie for emails

Not sure what stand we're on but it's not that big an arena so should be easy to find us.

See you there.

SoreHead

Got the tickets for the Kilkenny show so anyone that wants some let me know asap so that they reach you before next week. 25,26,27th in the Kilkenny arena.

Our site is Celtic Flame by the way. You can see some of the types of pellet stoves available.

Bomany

Balcas quoted 150 Euro per tonne for pellets. I think the minimum bulk delivery will be 2 tonnes.

I am seriously considering installing a wood pellet stove in a new house. What about storage and delivery into the boiler. I have heard a silo is the best option. Does anyone know about the technical end of the silo feeder?

SoreHead

Oh dear God. I just typed a page of info and the page crashed. Here goes again.

More briefly this time.

A number of systems available:
Plastic tank with hole for preferred feed type (auger/blower etc)
Metal tank with hole for same
Bag systems using blower system

The first 2 are designed for Northern climates that are cold and dry. Not suitable for here in my opinion with the damp.

Warren brown (wahb@eircom.net) in Kerry is currently bringing in an excellent bag system using a blower system that can be situated away from the house with the feed pipe underground. The system also filters the dust before it feeds which is very important in preventing feed blockages in the boiler (not applicable to bottom feeders which temd to be multifuel anyway). Not sure of his company name and I'm on the laptop now but that email will get to him and he will be happy to give more info I'm sure.

The fuel is fed into the system using a modified cattle feed truck which Warren and Balcas have been specifying for quite some time now.

The system is a bag supported by a metal frame which is then covered to appear like a shed so it doesn't ruin the look of your garden.

Hope this helps

Bomany

Thanks for information. Very helpful. Was at Self Build show in Belfast. In the North they get a £2000 grant toward wood pellet boilers and £500 toward solar panels. It is disgraceful that the government here is not encouraging people to switch to eco-friendly fuels.

tinofapples

In the North they get a £2000 grant toward wood pellet boilers

Typical of our country.

Sure wouldn't that cover the cost of the boiler ??

Sorehead , know of any similar incentive here ? Got the tickets by the way , thanks a million !!

SoreHead

No grants here as yet unfortunately.
We don't even get a reduction in VAT. It's the full 13.5% same as any other fuel.

The grant for our boiler up North and UK is €1,500 and the stoves get €600.

See any of you at the show.
Not sure what our stand is but it's Celtic Flame if you want to see them working and have any questions answered.

ultra

SoreHead wrote:

To be honest, from experience, Irish people are a couple of years away from being ready for the boilers.

Hi Sorehead,

New user here!
I was seriously considering installing a pellet boiler in our house (nearing end of construction). Do you think that maybe I should install an oil burner for the moment and when the pellet boiler market matures here, then switch to a pellet boiler?

I have installed underfloor heating if thats of any relevance.

Thanks.

Doper Than U

I'm going to sound like a complete dunce here, but I am seriously considering a joint system of geothermal heating and wood pellets if that's doable. I'm just a little sketchy on the wood pellet system. What is the difference between the stove and the boiler? Do you have to shovel the pellets in like coal? I'm a little confused about how the system works on a practical level...

aislingw

We were all on for getting an EF Thermo, as it is half the price of the other boilers on the market, if not less - but would like to hear of someone who has gone through a winter with one. So thought I'd ask here... Anyone actually have one, or can you recommend a different pellet boiler (not a stove).

Thanks!

Aisling

PS - Doper than U - have I seen you on a certain peakoil forum - and on river cottage too? i'm just a lurker but I recognise your sig and general location etc

ednwireland

just been looking at these and been qouted €5000 euro for a stove and 8000 for a boiler from greenheat (ballpark didn't speak much to him after that) when a condensing oil boiler at 97% efficiency costs €1500 these prices are ridiculous how are we supposed to go green when the prices are like this. i seriously would like to replace my oil boiler with wood pellet as i can't see oil doing anything but get more expensive. but €8000 its only a burner a heat exchanger and a worm drive with a bit of electronics. i reckon i'm going with oil cos i can't justify a 15 year payback. also i read that these boilers work best running continuously, you can't just switch them on and off like an oil boiler (you can run them down to 15% output though). if anyone has better prices could they post them !

aislingw

Only thing I'd say there, ednwireland is that a 15 year payback is presumably based on current oil prices. There is a lot of talk about that these will double in the next couple of years, so you might be looking at a lot shorter payback time.

Goll Mac Morna

I was really enthusiastic about wood pellet stoves and boilers for months ( a couple of months ago).
But I was really turned off by the cost a PELLETTHERM P2 pellet boiler from FROLING in Austria was the one that I was after but it costs about £7 K (approx. €10K)

When you can get a condensing oil boiler for €1,500 approx. as mentioned by a previous poster and when you get absolutely no incentives form Rialtas na hÉireann to go green, the numbers for pellet heating don't add up.

+ our climate is wetter than the continental (cold and dry)and could cause problems re: storage of pellets in hoppers

The most worthwhile investment is to stick your extra couple of thousand € into passive solar design (if a new house), insulation and very good quality windows to go for a house that gets close to ZERO ENERGY, BODY HEAT or PASSIVHAUS (PAssive House) standards and thus limit your need for heat at all.

I am going for this option myself and will install a small oil boiler and radiators to boost heat when/ if needed.

ednwireland

yep i wanted to put in solar heating 8 years ago when renovating could't afford that, now want more green and can't afford that, i have a south facing sun room (with several feet of hardcore undrneath) and any sunny day the doors are opened to the rest of the house and the hetaing stays off.
maybe someone could explain why green technology seems to be developed for the rich not the masses.
anyway even if oil prices go (more) through the roof i have to take that risk as i just don't have the 8000 for the boiler and the money to build the boiler house extension to put the thing in and the store pellets.
mind you i have a solid fuel range and a wodd burning stove in the house and a chainsaw so i have a few options :-)

ednwireland

sorry to post again but just got this still €5500 from solar energy ireland www.solarenergyireland.com
but pointed me to some really interesting calculators on the following site
go to the bottom of the page, calculators and tools

http://www.sei.ie/content/content.asp?section_id=741

the spreadsheet on domestic fuel comparison is interesting

Bomany

Six months ago I started off wanting to make my house as green as possible. I wanted to reduce greenhouse gases etc. But unfortunately as an average PAYE WORKER I found out very soon that the cost of this is crippling. I am building a new house - very expensive - and the extra cost of 5.5k for a wood pellet boiler plus whatever to build a silo etc is beyond me at this point. All these options have VAT slapped on them by that greedy shower of wasters in Dail Eireann. Dick Roche may spiff on the TV and radio about the Kyoto Agreement etc and get his picture in the paper beside some wind farm in County Wexford, but when it comes to putting money where his mouth is it is a different story. I am sick of this. I feel guilty about installing an oil boiler. But at the end of the day I cannot afford to install the heating system I would like to.

rooferPete

Hi Bomany,

No reason to feel guilty that I can see, you are looking to the future and wanted to start the change today, I think that's admirable.

We all agree oil will increase in cost and it would be nice if we could heat our homes in an enviromentally safe way, but this Government will not remove the VAT on goods to assist the disabled unless the disabled person can prove they paid for the goods themselves, they even want to see the loan agreement from the finance house.

That is our Caring Ireland of today, what you can do is get your plumber to make provision for a second heating appliance that you can install later.

By planning today for the future you will most likely have two advantages, one being the lowest cost to change your system, the second being the system you get will have been tried and tested.

So much is said about pellet boilers today that is not exactly the truth, they do cost more than 250 euro a year to heat the average home.

Many do not have the output that equals the oil boiler, some are being sold at amazing mark up's or profits for the retailers.

I being a decadent capitalist believe in profit, but a fair profit margin that makes the units affordable for anyone who wishes to install one in their home or business premises.

Perhaps by not installing today you may be able to avail of some Government inititives like zero VAT or even a grant in the future

.

gregos

rooferPete wrote:

Perhaps by not installing today you may be able to avail of some Government inititives like zero VAT or even a grant in the future.

It'll happen. Unfortunately, our elected policy-makers being what they are (that is to say, ignorant half-educated buffoons) it will take rather longer than in the rest of the EU. What you can do, in terms of design, is put the circumstances in place now, so that when you decide to install your wood-pellet burner, it can happen with the least disruption.

Maskhadov

I have 2,000 square feet 10 radiator bungalow house to heat. What kind of boiler is required to heat that size and what kind of price would it cost ?

and what kind of grants are available ??

pollyanna

There are grants available for 2006 only for the wood pellet boilers and solar panels just go to the sei.ie site. I have had severel quotes ranging from €10,000 up to €13,000 thats inc vat and installation. Has anyone out there had one fitted that they could recommend? anyone had problems with the boiler.
3 companies have told me i need 3 different sizes i have a 2800 sqft house with 24 radiators one said i need 25kw one company have give me 2 quotes one saying i need a 30kw and another guy from the same place said we need a 40kw, so who do you trust?
The grant available for the size boiler we are after is €4200 which we have got so now its deciding where to go, we will still have to put around €6,000 towards it and it is a lot of money especially if we get the wrong advice.

vicar1

Hello Folks, anyone bought a wood pellet stove ? I am interested in both space heating and boiler types and wonder how reliable, efficient and cost effective they are. any advice? Thanks!