AGM & Pistol/Revolver Seminar 2004

jaycee

RE- National Rifle and Pistol Association of Ireland. AGM

Agenda: NRPAI - AGM & Pistol/Revolver Seminar.
Venue: Heritage Hotel, Portlaoise.
Date: Saturday 11th December 2004.
Duration: 10.00 to 17.00 hrs.

AGM: 10.00 hrs to 13.00 hrs.



1. Apologies.
2. Minutes of Last AGM.
3. Matters Arising.
4. Reports from Treasurer, PRO, Chairman & Secretary.
5. Reports from Affiliated Associations.
6. NRPAI – Strategy Update.

Lunch: 13.00 hrs to 14.00 hrs

Seminar: 14.00 hrs to 17.00 hrs.

7. Firearm Safety Procedures.
8. Pistol – Revolver Proficiency.
9. Procedure for Obtaining Licence.
10. Open Forum - Q & A.

http://homepage.eircom.net/~ntsai/AGM04.htm

Anyone aware of this AGM ...?

Anyone going to it...?

Do you need to be a member to attend..?

Any chance of a report on it afterwards...?

Rovi

Hmmmmmmmmm....................................... interesting.
And not a million miles away from me either.

Would be good to hear a report, allright.

allnight_2002

Would love to hear a report :rolleyes:

jaycee

Shhhh....!
Don't all shout at once ..one at a time please .. :rolleyes:

Rovi

Well, it happened yesterday (or did it???)

Has anyone got anything to report?

gouda

Rovi wrote:

Well, it happened yesterday (or did it???)

Yes.

jaycee

gouda wrote:

Yes.

And...?

What happened ?..any interesting developments or insights..?
Are there any plans to progress the situation .
Or is it a prohibited to discuss it ..?

oldzed

1 yes there were some intresting developments , 2 What do you mean progress the situation? , what situation? . lastly its not prohibited to discuss anything but I personally would rather discuss the meeting with people who had enough intrest in the shooting sports to actually attend the meeting rather then look for a summary from everyone else . the developments will break shortly and its up to the nrpai to break them but oops the nrpai does not exist anymore, but anyone who was there saturday would know that . I bet I have a few curious people out there now but all will be revealed shortly

jaycee

What do you mean progress the situation?

As in.. make any progress from the situation that we now find ourselves in
where we haven't a clue what extra amendments might be inserted in the bill
by the DOJ and just keeping our fingers crossed that we don't revert back to the bad old days of nothing larger than .270 . ..That situation..!

I personally would rather discuss the meeting with people who had enough intrest in the shooting sports to actually attend the meeting rather then look for a summary from everyone else

The only reason I didn't attend was because I recieved no response to my original questions prior to the meeting..

Anyone aware of this AGM ...?
Anyone going to it...?
Do you need to be a member to attend..?

I also got no response to the same questions emailed to an officer of the NRPAI..

In light of the total lack of interest in communication or a response of any sort before the meeting.. I decided to keep a prior arrangement with a friend to spend the day proving my interest in shooting at the midland rifle club . Very enjoyable it was too.
But I would have gladly attended the meeting instead ,as would others if we were aware it was open to non-members.

Was it open to all ..?

So now we're back to my final question from my first post ,

Any chance of a report on it afterwards...?

Apparently not....!

Lest I create the wrong impression ..!
I'm not "Having a go.." at anyone in this .. it's just that I think it's a pity that
all of us in the "Pro-Shooting" camp who need to be as co-operative , open and be willing to share information as possible ..generally are quite the opposite.

As to a prohibition on disclosure . if the nrpai does not exist anymore,
It can hardly be in a position to either prohibit or support anything.
I can only hope that it has merged with some of the other shooting bodies to
provide a more united presence ..something badly needed in the irish shooting scene.

Sparks

JC, it's not that the NRPAI doesn't exist anymore, it's that it's changed it's name:

From: SSAI PRO
To: SSAIPRO@Eircom.net
Cc: Crime and Security Section
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 12:48 PM
Subject: Change of Name of the NRPAI
Dear All

We had a very successful AGM yesterday in Portlaoise, one of the
significant motions passed was to change the name of the NRPAI to the
Shooting Sports Association of Ireland.

Significant debate took place regarding the advantages of the change the
most significant being a rebranding of the Association to reflect more
what we are about.

Effective immediately the NRPAI will be now known as the Shooting Sports
Association of Ireland.

In the new year we will launch the name formally and we will also be
holding a competition to design a new logo to reflect the ethos of the
organisation.

I thank everyone for attending the AGM yesterday the meeting was very
positive and I feel the we are finally on the right road to develop the
sport appropriately.

All current e-mail addresses will the maintained for a period yet to be
determined but in the meantime it is possible to reach us using the
following:

SSAI@eircom.net for general enquiry and will be managed by the Secretary


SSAIPRO@eircom.net for communications to the PRO (Declan Keogh)

Kind Regards
Declan Keogh
PRO SSAI

I am wondering though, where on the Agenda that was so widely circulated was this motion put forward? Most AGMs have to have all the motions circulated in advance, from what small experience I've had with them.

Sparks

Another change I was told of tonight was that the council of the SSAI will now comprise four representatives from each shooting body instead of the prior two.

Sparks

oldzed wrote:

its not prohibited to discuss anything but I personally would rather discuss the meeting with people who had enough intrest in the shooting sports to actually attend the meeting rather then look for a summary from everyone else

I was thinking of remaining quiet on this one, but what the hell. It's not like I can annoy the Powers That Be any more than I already have, right?

Oldzed, I've been told that at least one person on the NRPAI committee that I have had disagreements with, has publicly stated that he will walk out of any meeting I show up to. I receive rude and uncivil replies, if any at all, to offical emails I send to him, and he's called on the NTSA to have me thrown out of the NTSA. Is that meant to make me feel like a two-hour drive on a saturday morning to go to an AGM where I'm reasonably certain of uncivil behaviour from at least one person? Am I supposed to think I'd be welcome there? Do I really need my blood pressure to be increased any further?

And if the NRPAI/SSAI is acting on all our behalves, then why is it that even when I ask as a director of a national shooting body for information from them, I'm not given it? What's the point in keeping information from the shooters? Are the committee doing things behind closed doors that they wouldn't do in front of others? I mean, yes, some things need to remain in camera - disciplinary hearings, drug test results, that kind of thing - but even then only for a limited amount of time. I've never seen anything other than those specific examples in meetings that I would classify as being sufficently sensitive to remain classified!

Frankly, I'm unimpressed.

BTW, didn't anyone think that the "SS Association of Ireland" was an unfortunate moniker to choose?

civdef

Any other information come to light on the day - particulary re the licencing situation?

I walked past the hotel on the day, would have attended if I had known I was able to - would I have been?

Rovi

civdef wrote:

I walked past the hotel on the day, would have attended if I had known I was able to - would I have been?

I was in a similar position.
I live within reasonable striking distance of the hotel, and would have attended had I known I could do so.
I PM'd with jaycee when he brought the meeting to our attention, and we had arranged for him to let me know the results of his enquiries. As he had heard nothing by Saturday morning, we (not unreasonable, I’d suggest) concluded that our presence at the meeting was unwanted, and we left it at that.

So, there are 3 people right here who didn’t attend who would have, had they known they could.
.

oldzed

Nothing much was said in relation to liscensing , In relation to attendance I do not know what the requirements are , everyone signed an attendance sheet and stated their clubs on it , as far as i know if you are a member of an affiliated club you are by default a member of the nrpai , you can also join personally if you want , i have a personal membership and a club membership of the nrpai /ssai . the only real benefit of the personal one is you get mail when things are coming up like the agm etc . its not for me to say who can attend and who cant , i am not a commitee member and have no role in it and am not privy to these things , I would imagine a question directed to the nrpai e mail addresses would answer those questions if not it should . Sparks I dont know the history of your dispute with the 'Powers that be ', maybe now that there is a 16 man top table there will be more voices to resolve these things , Folks its great to see fire in your bellies and maybe you will all make it next year , whats killing me is that in a year thats maybe the most important in a long time at least since 72 is that we should be filling a venue closer to a concert hall than a conference room in a hotel . yes some of you would have been there if you had known etc but the vast majority that werent probably had a cat with hiccups or some other life emergency to attend to and you know thats true . In relation to the name change there were 2 put forward both were ssai just the sports and shooting words were reversed , some people had reservations , some voted against it but it got passed and thats what it is now .

Sparks

Old, who voted on the motion? Last time I checked the NRPAI's constitution, only the four shooting NGBs were meant to have a vote at the AGM...

oldzed

sparks that also got ammended to a show of hands at the agm from those present . I havent taken minutes or got minutes from anyone yet or I would pass them on .

Sparks

Whoa. Stop. Old, are you saying that the AGM decided with a show of hands to give voting rights to people other than the representatives of the four NGBs that make up the NRPAI?

jaycee

Folks its great to see fire in your bellies and maybe you will all make it next year , whats killing me is that in a year thats maybe the most important in a long time at least since 72 is that we should be filling a venue closer to a concert hall than a conference room in a hotel .

Hi "Zed"

I totally agree ..especially at this time it is more important than it has been for
a long time that every voice in shooting should be lending as much weight as possible to our viewpoint .

I get the uneasy feeling that it is all teetering on a knife edge and could easily go either way yet..I really hope I'm wrong about that ..!

Thanks for the update .. Not the same as "Being there" but nonetheless
good to have an idea as to what happened.

gouda

Sparks wrote:

Whoa. Stop. Old, are you saying that the AGM decided with a show of hands to give voting rights to people other than the representatives of the four NGBs that make up the NRPAI?

Better get a good stock of Blood Pressure meds in for Christmas,Sparks.

Sparks

gouda wrote:

Better get a good stock of Blood Pressure meds in for Christmas,Sparks.

You and me both Gouda, if I've understood oldzed correctly.

Sparks

Oldzed, did I understand you right?

oldzed

Brace yourself sparks , go put the kettle on and make yourself a nice cup of tea .and sit down .

oldzed

sitting down , good . yes your interpretation was correct . all in favor wave your hands in the air .

Sparks

Well. Nice to know that they don't even follow their own rules then. Consistency, after all, is a good thing.

(Do they know that this invalidates the vote completely?)

Sparks

Obtained a copy of the minutes of the AGM, thought they might be of interest to all. Note that these minutes have to be approved at the next AGM before becoming official, technically speaking, and may be amended. For example, the point where the voting rights of the organisation were wholly (and to my mind, illicitly) changed by a vote taken from people who had no right to vote in the first place, gets surprisingly little coverage (in fact, none at all). There are also minor errors (section 7's points are listed as section 6 points, and so on).

I'd be very interested to hear what the offical explanation for item 7.4 is:

Consider streamlining the NRPAI and examine how numbers of Affiliated Associations might be reduced while maintaining and increasing the numbers of affiliated clubs

To me, this means that someone wants to either subsume one of the four organisations (two of whom - the NTSA and the IPC - cannot be subsumed for reasons I can happily detail if anyone's interested) that make up the NRPAI, or actually eliminate one of them. That this would be put forward without public discussion says a great deal, to my mind.

I note that there's a fifth one listed, the National Pistol Association, making what seems to be it's first listing - I certainly don't remember it being in the constitution of the NRPAI last I looked, and it's noted in the minutes that it hasn't been around long. However, it was noted that the Tirol Open team was attributed to them, an interesting attribution since they all wore NRPAI shirts and caps and were entered as an NRPAI team.

On a more positive note, it's nice to see the NASRC is taking over Gallery Rifle, as it should do.

Sparks

Well, if you have a question, ask the man, no?

Sent to NRPAI@eircom.net :

Subject: Offical statement requested (for attention, NRPAI secretary).
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:28:34 +0000
To: NRPAI@eircom.net

Pat,
I'd like to request an offical NRPAI statement regarding item
7.4 in the minutes of the NRPAI AGM of December 11, namely:

Consider streamlining the NRPAI and examine how numbers
of Affiliated Associations might be reduced while
maintaining and increasing the numbers of affiliated
clubs.

In particular, does this statement indicate a desire to
either subsume or eliminate one of the constituent bodies
within the NRPAI?

Thank you.

I'll post the response if I get one.

Sparks

Sparks wrote:

Well, if you have a question, ask the man, no?
I'll post the response if I get one.

No response received yet, but the email's been resent to all the NRPAI addresses, so soon as some response arrives...

Sparks

Still no response received yet, so the question was sent off by post today.

Sparks

A response received today by email (about an hour ago) to the Jan 26th email question:

Mark,
Discussions did take place with respect to streamlining of SSAI Associations. The National Pistol Association resulting from several sets of discussions has asked the SSAI executive to represent them and to organise Pistol events. The SSAI have in turn requested the NTSA to organise and run Olympic type events and the NASRC to organise and run Practical and Gallery Pistol shooting events. The Silhouette Association are also considering their options at this point in time.
Best Regards,
Pat.

Thing is, that raises more questions than it answers, so, as before, if you have a question, ask the man...

Ref:[SSAI, Mon, 07/03/05 @ 21:51 -0000]
> Mark,
> Discussions did take place with respect to streamlining of SSAI
> Associations. The National Pistol Association resulting from several sets
> of discussions has asked the SSAI executive to represent them and to
> organise Pistol events. The SSAI have in turn requested the NTSA to
> organise and run Olympic type events and the NASRC to organise and run
> Practical and Gallery Pistol shooting events. The Silhouette Association
> are also considering their options at this point in time.
> Best Regards,
> Pat.

Dear Pat,
Firstly, thank you for your response. However it prompts two immediate inquiries; I would appreciate your official statement on these also.

Firstly I'm surprised that the National Pistol Association (Who are they? I'm afraid I've never seen a public list of their committee or for that matter, any public details of their organisation) would make such a request of the NRPAI since the NRPAI is not meant to be a national governing body, but a federation of same; indeed the copy of the NRPAI constitution I have here says specifically that the NRPAI is not permitted to make policy decisions relating to a constituent body's disciplines.

May I assume that the text in question represents just an inaccurate turn of phrase? Or does the NRPAI now wish to change its nature from a federation of NGBs to an NGB itself? And if so, how does it intend to continue to operate as an umbrella body? Or has it found itself in an awkward position and if so, is there a planned course of action to take?

I'm also shocked at the phrasing that the NRPAI "requested the NTSA to organise and run Olympic type events" - the NTSA is (and has been for almost two decades) the ISSF-recognised national governing body in Ireland for rifle and pistol events (the ICPSA managing the shotgun events).

For the NRPAI to "request" the NTSA to run these events is for the NRPAI to assume that it not only has authority to dictate policy to the NTSA (which it does not - not only does the NRPAI constitution forbid this explicitly, but also the NTSA is a distinct and separate limited company under the 1963 companies act, over which the NRPAI can have no authority without the explicit backing of the members); it also implies that the NRPAI assumes it has authority to direct the management of ISSF shooting in Ireland (it most certainly does not, not being recognised by the ISSF, the IOC or the Olympic Council of Ireland).

Was this also merely an inaccurate turn of phrase?

I await your response.
Thank you,

Sparks

An interesting question which springs to mind is how the NRPAI devolving National Pistol Association duties to other NRPAI groups will bear on the new IPSA, since the NRPAI's already been making moves towards practical pistol.

Sparks

And it's also informative to read the Letters to the Editor page in the Irish Shooters Digest this month - someone complained that the Pistol safety seminar was cancelled without any notice whatsoever, and the offical response boiled down to "well, you should have been there for the entire day, shouldn't you? I don't know, we work ourselves to the bone for you and all you do is complain, complain, complain. And I don't intend to engage in any further dialogue on this matter."

I'm suitably unimpressed.

BlackDot

Well at least the SSAI and all the deligates pressent gave their unanamous support to the NTSA taking full responsibility for olympic pistol. That leaves absolutely no room for anyone in the future and quite rightly so.
I don't think there was any order given by the SSAI, just agreement that everyone was explicitly clear on where are respective boarders were.
But feel free to keep poking away.

Sparks

BlackDot wrote:

Well at least the SSAI and all the deligates pressent gave their unanamous support to the NTSA taking full responsibility for olympic pistol.

Thing is, that's pretty much the same as the NRPAI giving their unanimous support to the FAI taking full responsibility for soccer games!

But feel free to keep poking away.

Don't get me wrong here Dot, this isn't poking for the sake of poking. There are several valid reasons for this.