Advice after crash

Padraig Mor

Hey folks, just looking for a bit of advice as to what to do after writing off my car (and someone else's!) on Tues.

Was heading to work on Tues morning, going along the same road as every morning, bit of drizzle that morning. The road where the accident happened is a long bend; I was doing max 40, in a 60 zone. So there I am, happy as Larry, and the car spins. No warning, no nothing, just suddenly span. Car flies over to the left straight into a wall (airbag went off etc) then shoots over to the other side of the road directly into a car coming the opposite direction. Thankfully, and surprisingly, we both walked out of it, which is the main thing, as we could have been killed. The girl maybe hurt her shoulder a small bit, but thankfully, seems sound and just after a replacement car (both written off), not a personal injury claim.

The Guards came and I must say the guy dealing with us was an absolute b@stard. Open and shut, he says, my fault. Had witnesses there to say that I wasn't speeding, or doing anything stupid; he didn't care - sent them away without taking their details! Wasn't the slightest bit interested in why my car spun.

Now, naturally I don't deny losing control of the car, hitting the wall and crashing into that poor girl. What I do question though is my blame in losing control of the car. As I said, I wasn't driving recklessly and my car (97 Fiesta) was in grand condition (no more though!). Initially I thought I must have had a blowlout or that the steering column broke or something. Unlikely though I think. I'm wondering though whether the road surface is not suitable for driving on. Now, there were no leaves etc on the road, and no apparent mud. Tow away guy said mine was the third such incident in the same spot in two weeks. He also said the same thing happens every winter there. Limit there is 60, and no signs about slippery road etc. So I'm wondering, is the council at fault in some way?

I would understand if I'd been driving like a lunatic, but the fact that I wasn't is what is really annoying me. I'm driving since Feb (and doing ~250 miles/wk for the last six months) and have never so much as touched the body of my car against anything (few wheel/kerb incidents alright). I think the Guard just thought 'young (well, 30) male driver; provisional licence....must have been speeding......case closed, another investigative success for the Garda Siochana....back to me tea').

So....any advice? Is the council partly to blame? Or is it tough t!tty on me?

Two further questions...
1. How will this affect my insurance? Was nearing my first year in my own name (no named experience). Premium last year was €1500 for third party on 1.25 Fiesta. With Quinn Direct.

2. Need to get myself a new car! Was going to change shortly anyway (after doing test) and had half decided on a 1.6 Audi A3. However, don't think my insurance would appreciate this! Wouldn't mind stepping up to a bigger car though. Would I be better off staying on a small car for a while? Or would the insurance not be much higher on a 1.4? HAve seen a 00 Xsara coupe for €6500 - any opinions?

okidoki987

You will find it very hard to prove the council were at fault.
It could have been oil, a leaf or anything that caused the car to spin.
You might have some chance with the fact that it was the 3rd time, go have a look and see if the road surface is suitable for that part of the road.
Get the tow guys details and maybe contact a solicitor (but don't hold your breath).
I'm not suggesting this but don't be surprised to see a personal injury claim coming in along with the car claim. Happened to my mother, tipped a taxi at 5mph taking off from a set of lights (slow taxi driver!), damage to bumper 200 and personal injury claim 3,000!
If you only had 3rd party, you will have to cover the cost of your car yourself.
Depends on your insurance cover whether your premium will go up (some companies have one claim and no increase, others have none but it depends on things like age of driver, claims record, ncb etc).
I'd have a guess and say it will be a lot more then what you are paying now especially if it is a higher cc car.

Interceptor

Tough break Padraig M,

Glad you are ok - too many accidents end up worse. Unfortunately unless you can prove the council negligent then you are on the receiving end of a hefty insurance hike and you will be driving small-engined cars for a while. The attending cop can't have helped the situation - did he check for any signs of spilt diesel on the road or on your tyres? Did he try and measure the skid marks your car left? Without these it is going to be difficult to make a case in your defense.

You say the car spun and hit the left hand side of the road - was it a right or left hand bend? Were you at a standstill on the other side of the road when the other car hit you? Inexperience and incompetence are two different things and unfortunately the two get lumped together when young male drivers have accidents - did the road have noticeable camber, was Tuesday cold enough for there to have been frost/ice on the road, your ten months on the road may not have prepared you for the events that led up to your accident and I hope you don't ever have another smack like this one.

I hit black ice on a bend in my first car, hit a ditch, flipped it onto the roof into the path of an oncoming milk truck and I was ok too but I never forgot about black ice again....


'c

Padraig Mor

interceptor wrote:

Tough break Padraig M,

Glad you are ok - too many accidents end up worse. Unfortunately unless you can prove the council negligent then you are on the receiving end of a hefty insurance hike and you will be driving small-engined cars for a while. The attending cop can't have helped the situation - did he check for any signs of spilt diesel on the road or on your tyres? Did he try and measure the skid marks your car left? Without these it is going to be difficult to make a case in your defense.

You say the car spun and hit the left hand side of the road - was it a right or left hand bend? Were you at a standstill on the other side of the road when the other car hit you? Inexperience and incompetence are two different things and unfortunately the two get lumped together when young male drivers have accidents - did the road have noticeable camber, was Tuesday cold enough for there to have been frost/ice on the road, your ten months on the road may not have prepared you for the events that led up to your accident and I hope you don't ever have another smack like this one.

I hit black ice on a bend in my first car, hit a ditch, flipped it onto the roof into the path of an oncoming milk truck and I was ok too but I never forgot about black ice again....


'c

As far as I am aware (was obviously a bit shaken) the Guards didn't even check the road for oil/skid marks etc (must have been coffee time.....). Bend is a long right hand one, bit of camber but nothing major. I drive it every morning and evening, and never had any problem. Definitely no ice - wasn't cold at all. Events 'during' the crash are slightly unclear, but I may have been still moving when I hit her, not very fast though. However, the more I think about it, I may have actually stopped at that stage. I remember seeing her coming towards me (and trying to use my telepathic powers to stop her car!) but don't recall any motion in my car. However, it's hard to pick everything up when there's a car about to plough into you!

Padraig Mor

okidoki987 wrote:

I'm not suggesting this but don't be surprised to see a personal injury claim coming in along with the car claim. Happened to my mother, tipped a taxi at 5mph taking off from a set of lights (slow taxi driver!), damage to bumper 200 and personal injury claim 3,000!
If you only had 3rd party, you will have to cover the cost of your car yourself.
.

This is what I'm hoping won't happen. Luckily she seems like a very genuine girl and even said not to worry about a whiplash claim etc. Brought her to the doctor who said she maybe sprained her shoulder but that was it. Even brought her to my house for tea! Have talked to her since then and she says she's fine.

Yip, I know I gotta fork out for a new car Guess I should have paid extra for comprehensive.....

seamus

Yeah that's a bit ****ty.

interceptor wrote:

your ten months on the road may not have prepared you for the events that led up to your accident

I think, no matter what happens or what's proven, that ultimately this is what the insurance company and the courts (if it ends up there) will say.

It would be very, very difficult to find the council at fault. No matter what you claim, they can throw one of two valid counterclaims back at you -
a) You reacted incorrectly to a hazard, or
b) You were driving at an inappropriate speed and without due care for the conditions.

I'd say you'll just have to pay up, and move on.

Happened to my mother, tipped a taxi at 5mph taking off from a set of lights (slow taxi driver!), damage to bumper 200 and personal injury claim 3,000!

Taxi drivers will rape you for compo if you hit them. They have valid claims to loss of earnings while their vehicle is off the road, etc etc, but in practice they tend to vastly inflate their potential earnings (remember he can claim that he would have been on the road 7 days a week, even if he was going on his holidays when you hit him).

Interceptor

Padraig Mor wrote:

This is what I'm hoping won't happen. Luckily she seems like a very genuine girl and even said not to worry about a whiplash claim etc. Brought her to the doctor who said she maybe sprained her shoulder but that was it. Even brought her to my house for tea! Have talked to her since then and she says she's fine.

Yip, I know I gotta fork out for a new car Guess I should have paid extra for comprehensive.....

I hope she is genuine - I had a tonk in a €50 car hit me side-on at 5mph and both he and his passenger claimed and received 40k for major injuries. Both cars drove away from the scene and he assured me that he wasn't going to claim. He also tried to hit me for €500 to replace his car WHILE preparing his claim.

'c

The_Conductor

Hiya,

Unfortunately, from an insurers perspective- you are at fault for any damage caused to the oncoming car- regardless of the circumstances of the accident- by virtue of the fact that you were on the wrong side of the road.
The reason you were on the wrong side of the road- i.e. black ice / aquaplaning or whatever, is irrelevant to the insurance company. The likely expenses they would incur in bringing a case against the council, should a case exist, mean that the relative merits of the case are, unfortunately from your perspective, unlikely to be explored. From a purely financial perspective- it will cost them more to investigate the case than to pay up.

It is very unfortunate that the accident happened- the only silver lining to the cloud is that no-one was seriously hurt.

Sorry to hear about your accident,

S.

Padraig Mor

smccarrick wrote:

Hiya,

Unfortunately, from an insurers perspective- you are at fault for any damage caused to the oncoming car- regardless of the circumstances of the accident- by virtue of the fact that you were on the wrong side of the road.
The reason you were on the wrong side of the road- i.e. black ice / aquaplaning or whatever, is irrelevant to the insurance company. The likely expenses they would incur in bringing a case against the council, should a case exist, mean that the relative merits of the case are, unfortunately from your perspective, unlikely to be explored. From a purely financial perspective- it will cost them more to investigate the case than to pay up.

It is very unfortunate that the accident happened- the only silver lining to the cloud is that no-one was seriously hurt.

Sorry to hear about your accident,

S.

Yeah.....pretty much my opinion as well.

However, aside from the financials, shouldn't the council go and bloody DO something about this? If this craic is going on the whole time, wouldn't you think they'd lower the limit, put up 'slippery' signs and resurface the road?! Let me guess - they'll wait till someone is killed. Could have been me

Padraig Mor

seamus wrote:

.

It would be very, very difficult to find the council at fault. No matter what you claim, they can throw one of two valid counterclaims back at you -
a) You reacted incorrectly to a hazard, or
b) You were driving at an inappropriate speed and without due care for the conditions.

This is what is annoying me. I wouldn't mind as much if I was doing 70 mph, or on the phone or something. But there was no visible hazard to react to, and I think most people would regard 40 in a 60 zone as an appropriate speed for a bit of drizzle. I see idiots doing stupid sh!t every day, yet I end up the one in the wall. Arsebiscuits!

Borzoi

Padraig Mor wrote:

Yeah.....pretty much my opinion as well.

However, aside from the financials, shouldn't the council go and bloody DO something about this? If this craic is going on the whole time, wouldn't you think they'd lower the limit, put up 'slippery' signs and resurface the road?! Let me guess - they'll wait till someone is killed. Could have been me

Sorry about the accident.

Why not write a letter to the council roads department, cc your councillor, and pointout what happened. I suspect the CoCo have no idea about what happens most of the time untiill someone points it out

kenmc

seamus wrote:

Taxi drivers will rape you for compo if you hit them. They have valid claims to loss of earnings while their vehicle is off the road, etc etc, but in practice they tend to vastly inflate their potential earnings (remember he can claim that he would have been on the road 7 days a week, even if he was going on his holidays when you hit him).

I wonder if there is any way of tying this to their reported earnings for last year..... I mean everybody knows they make cash in hand (10-12hours)x(5/6/7 days a week), and claim they worked a couple of lean hours a week all year when it comes to revenue.....
so if the estimate of the damage to them and the car is 7 days say... we should be able to look at their last years tax returns, average out how much they claimed to make per week based on their tax returns and pay them that amount for lost earnings....
wonder if that has ever popped up before????? i can almost bet my lunch that the amount payed out in the case of an accident in that case would be tiny....
thoughts????

Interceptor

Padraig Mor wrote:

This is what is annoying me. I wouldn't mind as much if I was doing 70 mph, or on the phone or something. But there was no visible hazard to react to, and I think most people would regard 40 in a 60 zone as an appropriate speed for a bit of drizzle. I see idiots doing stupid sh!t every day, yet I end up the one in the wall. Arsebiscuits!

I appreciate what you are saying, I sympathise with your predicament but with ten months driving experience, the crash may have been caused by something you should have noticed and didn't. You are ultimately responsible for the consequences of taking your car out of your driveway and it would be lovely to be able to blame the council/cops/government/farmers-who-spill-slurry/other drivers but it was YOU who crashed. I busted an alloy wheel in a pothole yesterday but I'm not going to try and claim or blame anyone - I drove it into the hole, ergo its my fault.

Cars don't cause accidents, people do. Of course you see people doing dumb stuff - and often when you aren't looking they skid into trees late at night and die.

'c

D!ve^Bomb!

Padraig Mor wrote:

I remember seeing her coming towards me (and trying to use my telepathic powers to stop her car!) !

Ha ha excellent, i'd + rep you if i could Take the girl out for dinner i say:)

I suppose you could always act the detective and try and find out what the circumstances were with the other cars that had crashed there previousl;y.. maybe it was the same situation.. if so you could ask for their backing when going to the CoCo..

Maybe you could get the girl a replacement car instead of claiming off the insurance.. Depending on what your insurance will go up to ofcourse.. But if it goes up quite a lot then you could offer a new(2nd hand) car for 2k or somethin.. what car was she driving? That way you'll save you ncb and prevent your insurance going up.. will you get points on your licence for this??

ambro25

newband wrote:

will you get points on your licence for this??

Shouldn't - he wasn't breaking the law (e.g. where the accident would be caused through drink-driving or speeding), just had an accident. Sh*t happens

BrianD3

Unfortunately, from an insurers perspective- you are at fault for any damage caused to the oncoming car- regardless of the circumstances of the accident- by virtue of the fact that you were on the wrong side of the road.

This is probably true from an insurance persepective. But if he crashed and ended up stationary on the wrong side of the road and she drove round a blind bend at 70 mph into him, then she would be partly to blame too for driving too fast for the conditions and not being able to stop in the distance she could see to be clear. Whether an insurance company would be willing to go through the hassle of trying to prove this is another matter.

Anyhow Padraig Mor I think you have little chance of claiming off the council. As you say yourself, it was drizzling at the time of the crash. A bit of drizzle combined with a film of dirt and oil (which is on every road esp in winter) can make a road very slippy.The fact that other people have crashed at this bend means very little except that you're not the only one who has been caught out by driving too fast for the conditions. Unless you can prove that there is a definite problem with the camber/drainage/surface at this bend then I'm afraid you may just forget about claiming for the council, take the hit on your insurance and try to learn from this experience. Sorry if this sounds harsh or like a lecture, it's not meant to be.

BrianD3

ambro25

BrianD3 wrote:

As you say yourself, it was drizzling at the time of the crash. A bit of drizzle combined with a film of dirt and oil (which is on every road esp in winter) can make a road very slippy.

Common inexperienced driver mistake, I'm afraid. Some 'damp' (not 'wet') roads can prove just as slippy -if not more so- than black ice or packed snow. Such situation/road conditions used to be part of the lessons taught formally (maybe still is), when I learned to drive in France.

As previously posted above, a good experience acquired (well... let's say well-learned, nothing fun about crashing howsoever), unfortunately an expensive one... but then that's just it: metal & money, nothing else - thank God!

sweeper4

interceptor wrote:

I busted an alloy wheel in a pothole yesterday but I'm not going to try and claim or blame anyone - I drove it into the hole, ergo its my fault.

You shouldn't be so willing to take the hit on things like this interceptor. Many hundreds of succesful claims for the cost of repair/replacement are made against councils each year for this type of incident. Carrying a camera in your car to get a picture of the offending pothole and damage at the time of the incident is a must though. Accompanied by a witness it improves your case considerably. You pay enough in road tax to expect a quality surface.
Would you be be so willing to let this slide if it happened on a privately owned road such as the West Link Toll bridge - should we expect no less on our public roads?

Padraig Mor - It is probably worth while having a word with a solicitor mentioning everything you put here. Personally I wouldn't hold out much hope, but perhaps those other accidents were reported to the council and you could at least highlight their in-action.

Best of luck for your insurance renewal.

Boggle

My brothers girlfriend slipped on oil and crashed her car on the way home from work maybe 2 years ago - writing off her and an oncoming car in the process. We got the call to the house telling us this and we went out to tyhe scene as fast as we could as the brother was on call in the fire-brigade and we wanted to get out there as fast as possible.... anyway, long story short, he in the ambulance with her when we got there and she is pretty okay now but the gard at the scene was absolutely pitiful. One look and he had his mind made up (regardless os the streams of oil coiming down a slight hill, and the obvious fact that the car she hit had hit 2 ditches before hitting her (he obviously lost it too on the oil). The only saving thing(hopefully) was that the head fireman came up to myself and the father and sent us up for a camera to take pictures of the state of the road.

She is trying to take a case against the council in what the solicitor deemed an open and shut case but since that happened I think there was a case ruling that councils were not responsible for the state of the roads so when it finally gets to court I feel they will get shafted...


Sorry for thye long story, but what I am getting at is that: a) causes of accidents are never fully investigated by gardai (hence several unexplained crashes on many stretches of road) b) always carry a disposable camera in your car c) even if you could prove that the road was in ****, you probably still probably cant claim as the ones responsible for maintaining our roads are not responsible for the state of our roads. **** country!!

mike65

Padraig Mor, I'd love to arrive late to this thread with a piece of paper that fixes everything but alas...!

All the salient points have been covered and you seem to be "in the right place" mentally ie you dont have any foolish delusions about what happened and what will happen next. Its just life and many of us will go through somthing similair. The hazards of an damp winters roads or summer roads after a shower are rarely considered, the local authorities can often make our lives harder (see the Muck on the roads thread) but they are pretty much immune from action as they'd be bankrupted if things were otherwise.

Roll with it and dont let it get the better of you.

Mike.

Our man in Havana

Are the Gardai going to prosecute you for any offences, Padraig? Be very careful if the call round later for statements etc.

When I had an accident they wouldnt listen and they threatened to prosecute me if I persisted with my claims.

unkel

Very sorry for you, Padraig Mor

I agree with pretty much all that was posted. I don't want to give you any hope - and I know it's clutching at straws, but I think you've nothing to lose by talking to the guy in the towtruck again

Try and get specifics out of him and try and talk to other towing companies. You might have a case against the council

BTW what condition were your tyres in?

ambro25

Bond-007 wrote:

When I had an accident they wouldnt listen and they threatened to prosecute me if I persisted with my claims.

wtf ?

dark_knight_ire

Well you walked away and thats an amazing feeling (same experience myself)

Now see where your in trouble is the fact that insurance company always factor blame to one driver (have to have someone who is the fall guy otherwise how would thay make money) now clearly the other driver will come away smelling of fresh roses, but however in your carse they will say you should have been driving in a manner to suit the conditions (don't shoot me just saying)

Now as for the guard he does not blame anyone the only way he makes a difference if the insurance company want an opinion on what happened unless he does you for dangerous driving whihc is a seperate thing altogether.

About 4 years ago what happened to you happened to me was not speeding and just lost the car on muck on the road left by farmers i spun into another car and done little damage or so i thought but who i hit was a £$"%£$^% lol and well attempted to sue me (did not work for her) but when the insurance company investigated i was blamed, i argued my point of mud on the road but as i coulod not prove how it got there and all this crack i was told my driving manner was not suitable for the conditions.

so maybe mate you might not be able to win

Victor

You might write to the council roads department advising them that there has been a number of accidents and can they have the surface checked out.