Ninjitsu - Portarlington

Cole

Anybody attend this club?..have trained in Jiu Jitsu in the past, interested in getting back into martial arts.
I'm new to this board and I'm sure its been discussed before, but any general comments/opinions on Ninjitsu training would be appreciated.

Thanks

pearsquasher

Cole,

If thats Steve Byrne's Bujinkan club then i can't recomend him enough. He got i'd say 30 years general MA experience (karate, iaido) including competition but has been teaching Bujinkan for a good few years now. I trained with him for 1 year before he moved out of Dublin and he used to teach my teachers. The man is an exceptional martial artist and has a great teaching style - one of the best i've seen at animating a technique so you can see the main features. He also practices the medicinal side of the art, Amatsu, and that gives him a vast amount of knowledge of the human body. If you're from a jujutsu background then some of the ideas in the art will be familiar. Its real-combat orientated and non-competitve, by the way.

Just give him a buzz, watch a class and see what you think.

dabhal

No sparring
But if you are into throws locks step in punch etc you'd be at home
And i think they dont' like being called ninjitsu anymore...correct me if im wrong guys but I think they use bujikan now.

Colm_OReilly

Its real-combat orientated and non-competitve, by the way

Errr....must....resist....

Cole,

ANY ma, regardless of history, focus, and intention, can only be considered realistic if you, the average practioner, are actively challenging yourself everyday in training.

To gain skill in anything, you have to first learn the technique (e.g. arm throw). Once you grasp the fundamentals of the technique you must begin to apply pressure in the form of
A. limit the time allowed to do it (Timing)
B. limit the space available (Movement)
C. Resistance on the part of your partner (Energy)

A skill is the ability to analyse a situation, select the appropriate technique for the moment, and it's successful situation. Every step of your training should take you a bit further from the static environment (Learning the technique with zero resistance/active help from your partner) towards a 'match play' scenario (a messy fight where techniques fail and there's full pressure)

I hope I'm getting this message across, let me know if you need clarification on this.

Peace Out,
Colm

pearsquasher

*cough* Thread-jacked *cough*

Its getting beyond borrrrrrrrrrrring


You can quote me on that.

Lemming

pimpage .....

Colm_OReilly

I'm only speaking the truth. I don't mean to cause you offence.

Hey why don't we train together sometime? This is not a challenge. Myself and Columok used to *fight* on message boards like this. We arranged to meet and train, we were better able to explain ourselves, and now we're good friends

Let me know what you think,
Colm

columok

*cough* Thread-jacked *cough*

and

pimpage .....

I wonder why?

Maybe its repeated flippant comments like

Its real-combat orientated

that force people interested in REAL self defence and REAL combat orientated arts to step forward and speak their minds.

Or maybe Cole asked for an opinion when he said

but any general comments/opinions on Ninjitsu training would be appreciated.

Cole:

Anything Ive seen of Ninjitsu/Bujinkan/whatever is great in theory but doesnt work in real life due to the lack of sparring in the training! I come from a TMA background and now train in BJJ/MMA! Any Bujinkan people Ive met have been nice people and the UCD club are a nice bunch with Shidoshi Rob in particular being very sound!

dabhal

columok wrote:

Anything Ive seen of Ninjitsu/Bujinkan/whatever is great in theory but doesnt work in real life due to the lack of sparring in the training!

I wouldn't like to be you when they come for you tonight (ninja don't you know) walking home happy as a pig in SH$#te then all of a sudden a euro coin strikes you in the head, you fall down DEAD and the shadow walks away into the night proud that vengeance has been satisfied.

Oh yes your so going to be visited by george from accounts...oh damn...you've killed us both

Lemming

columok wrote:

Maybe its repeated flippant comments like that force people interested in REAL self defence and REAL combat orientated arts to step forward and speak their minds.

So ... really .... you are in a REAL combat oriented art eh? Tell me columok - what was it you said about repeated flippant commentary?

Are you in the armed forces? Do you do engage in combat for a living as a professional soldier? No? Then you're not in a REAL combat oriented art. The only people who can claim that are those with their balls to the proverbial wall. Anyone else is doing something illegal or espousing wishful thinking.

At best these days joe-soap is training in a historical context.

Also, REAL self-defense does not involve engaging your assailant for anything above temporarily stopping them and running or some such .... Again, anyone preaching that self-defense consitutes wrestling someone to the ground and carrying out all manner of nastiness is sadly deluded if the law will look at it like that. Once you "stand and fight" you have moved beyond self-defense and into a consensual street-fight and you'll be dealt with as such by the courts.


as I've said ... repeated flippant commentary and all that ...

this is why I don't post much on the MA forums anymore.

columok

Are you in the armed forces? Do you do engage in combat for a living as a professional soldier? No? Then you're not in a REAL combat oriented art. The only people who can claim that are those with their balls to the proverbial wall. Anyone else is doing something illegal or espousing wishful thinking.

Nor am I training in the art of a certain type of soldier in feudal Japan. What I train in has proven itself in combat time and time again and still does.

Again, anyone preaching that self-defense consitutes wrestling someone to the ground and carrying out all manner of nastiness is sadly deluded if the law will look at it like that.

Sorry, I forgot. I do BJJ so the minute someone attacks me I'll jump onto my back and try and strangle them with my legs! Hardly. If you end up on the ground in a street fight (as many people do) and you know BJJ/Wrestling/Judo/Sambo you have a chance of getting back on your feet and running away. If you dont well then your pretty screwed. If I wanted to stun someone and run I'd do Muay Thai or Boxing. This assumes however that the combat will start from a both people standing situation rather than you possibly being drunk and falling over, attacked from behind, rugby tackled etc etc etc. Thats why MMA provides the best overall chance of REAL self defence because it allows you to escape/defend at any range!

Also considering a lot of the nastiness about tearing body parts off and crotch striking spouted by Ninjitsu people I think calling MMA (or BJJ) nasty is a little rich!

Clive

Are you in the armed forces? Do you do engage in combat for a living as a professional soldier? No? Then you're not in a REAL combat oriented art.

Much as I hate to jump in here, but there are plenty of people who are more qualified to discuss fighting (as in on the street, not warfare) than soldiers.
Security personnel, the Gardaí, prison officers, orderlies in psychiatric institutes etc all see far more "action" day to day than the average soldier.

Lemming

columok wrote:

Nor am I training in the art of a certain type of soldier in feudal Japan. What I train in has proven itself in combat time and time again and still does.

Columok, one of the points of Budo is adaptability. if you can't adapt you wont survive. So to say that anyone who trains with this art is training to be a feudal japanese soldier is quite idiotic. There is a wealth of information in there, some of which is purely historical at this point and can only ever be treated as such. But there is more that isn't .....

.... Thats why MMA provides the best overall chance of REAL self defence because it allows you to escape/defend at any range!

I love this use of the word "real". As I've pointed out .... the courts wont care if you are at arms or legs reach when you proceed to pummel someone after you've claimed the punch he swung two minutes ago was the first move and the proceeding two minutes of beating was _entirely_ justified.

Some people will be able to react to a genuine situation in order to get out no matter what their art is, some wont. You can't teach that instinct.

Also considering a lot of the nastiness about tearing body parts off and crotch striking spouted by Ninjitsu people I think calling MMA (or BJJ) nasty is a little rich!

Hmmm, I seem to recall it was the MMA boys going on about eye-gouging in previous discussions I've had .....

In any case, I cannot condone anyone who would carries on like that. Outside of a curiosity context there is no justification for wanting to know such techniques. As said elsewhere about getting into fights a lot, if you are genuinely interested in learning such techniques because you think they're "cool", then perhaps you need to rexamine your lifestyle and attitude .....

clive wrote:

Much as I hate to jump in here, but there are plenty of people who are more qualified to discuss fighting (as in on the street, not warfare) than soldiers.
Security personnel, the Gardaí, prison officers, orderlies in psychiatric institutes etc all see far more "action" day to day than the average soldier.

You'd be right, except that's not "combat". I'm trying to get the point across of the pot calling the kettle black (re. flippant commentary). I would possibly argue that such personnel however are not involved in "fights" per-se as enforcement. Of course they will get sucked in from time to time which is inevitable given the nature of their work. But to say, for example, that the garda who blocked a running punch and dragged a guy to the ground was in a fight is a bit of a lead-on. If you follow my point?

pearsquasher

Anyway.... :rolleyes:

Ninjutsu in Portarlington is the thread topic.

Somebody pointed out that it's not known as that anymore and they are correct. It's Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu - formally known as Ninjutsu and it's a modern martial art derived out of tradtional japanese martial arts.

The guy in Portarlington - Steve Byrne - has a LOT of sparring/competition time (as do most Bujinkan teachers including the grandmaster Hatsumi and the master teachers) and none of them in general, teach sparring or grappling or "competition" dynamics within the Bujinkan system. Why? Because they have peronally found them to be non-productive in the realm of actual combat - of which they all have some experience - compared to the methodology of teaching which does occur - techniques, drills, skillset aquistion etc. That's THEIR opinion.

When i was in Japan, a guy who runs a UFC club in Osaka came to train with Hastumi and got thrown around the place. I'm sure he succesfully applies his Bujinkan training to the UFC stuff he does.... but that doesn't work the other way around, as he found himself.

If they guy who asked about Portarlington is concerned about the no-sparring thing in the Bujinkan.. all he has to do is ask the teacher about it and he'll get a polite and informed awnswer by someone with first hand expereince. I never asked Steve myself about this but i'm sure he'd be honest. Who knows, he may endorse sparring for all i know. He didn't when i trained with him. Maybe he knew something about it?

Now... at the same time... i HAVE sparred and grappled in the Bujinkan. Its a good excersise for reflexes and lots of other things but the way we do it, it is not geared to a toe-to-toe mindset like ring-based martial sports.

These arguments always come up.... always by people who have little or no experience in full time study of the Bujnkan arts. I've met plenty of Bujinkan folks who feel sparring is missing and i can sympathise with them as i did loads myself and miss it too - but i come to realise its very different to real combat and the more these people study Bujikan the more they see that too.

Unless anyone else has personal experience of the Bujinkan in Portarlington, or indeed anything less than a few years in a respected Bujinkan dojo they have little to contribute to the thread.

columok

Lemming,

So to say that anyone who trains with this art is training to be a feudal japanese soldier is quite idiotic.

Then I would question several of the outdated practices in Ninjitsu also prevalent in other "Budo" arts eg Katatedori grip defences in Aikido! (not singling out Aikido here, rather using an example that I'm very familiar with)

As I've pointed out .... the courts wont care if you are at arms or legs reach when you proceed to pummel someone after you've claimed the punch he swung two minutes ago was the first move and the proceeding two minutes of beating was _entirely_ justified.

Who says that just because an MMA fighter is trained in ground striking that they are going to do it on the street! We arent a shower of PCPed up psychos running around town "cagefighting" muggers but nonetheless I thank you for the generalisation! Do you know any people that train MMA?

Some people will be able to react to a genuine situation in order to get out no matter what their art is, some wont. You can't teach that instinct.

People freeze in fights/assaults due to the affects of adrenaline. If people can learn to deal with adrenaline then some of this can be negated! Obviously some people are better fighters than others due to natural gifts but by training smart anyone can learn to defend themselves!

Hmmm, I seem to recall it was the MMA boys going on about eye-gouging in previous discussions I've had .....

Where?

You'd be right, except that's not "combat". I'm trying to get the point across of the pot calling the kettle black (re. flippant commentary). I would possibly argue that such personnel however are not involved in "fights" per-se as enforcement. Of course they will get sucked in from time to time which is inevitable given the nature of their work. But to say, for example, that the garda who blocked a running punch and dragged a guy to the ground was in a fight is a bit of a lead-on. If you follow my point?

The same skills apply regardless of the level of force required. A boxer punching someone to unconsciousness and a boxer tapping someone lightly in training use the exact same skills in different contexts. A Garda restraining a criminal and a Garda fighting for his life against an attacker uses the exact same skills just with different goals and different tactics!

columok

pearsquasher- Cole asked for general comments on Ninjitsu so for some of us to make them isnt going off topic

When i was in Japan, a guy who runs a UFC club in Osaka came to train with Hastumi and got thrown around the place. I'm sure he succesfully applies his Bujinkan training to the UFC stuff he does.... but that doesn't work the other way around, as he found himself.

I think we discussed this before but anecdotal evidence proves nothing. Equally I could point you in the direction of Karate, Kung Fu, Ninjitsu, etc etc guys who got absolutely schooled in the UFC! Its still an example of one person. Better to look at how a range of people schooled using Bujinkan or MMA methods perform in a sparring situation! I couldnt say I once saw a boxer getbeaten up by a guy I know therefore boxing doesnt work. I believe that is known as fallacious reasoning!

These arguments always come up.... always by people who have little or no experience in full time study of the Bujnkan arts. I've met plenty of Bujinkan folks who feel sparring is missing and i can sympathise with them as i did loads myself and miss it too - but i come to realise its very different to real combat and the more these people study Bujikan the more they see that too

Maybe told it over and over again by teachers they are taught to respect might foster this attitude!

Unless anyone else has personal experience of the Bujinkan in Portarlington, or indeed anything less than a few years in a respected Bujinkan dojo they have little to contribute to the thread.

I fundamentally disagree with this!

Cole

I didn't think my enquiry was going to ignite such a heated debate!
I appreciate the feedback.

Cole

pearsquasher

I didn't think my enquiry was going to ignite such a heated debate!

Welcome to boards.ie/Self Defence / Martial Arts :rolleyes:


*rolls away

Colm_OReilly

pearsquasher,

Topics nearly always, IMO, evolve and flow off topic on message boards. Some one will say something, another will respond to it, and they'll investigate it. It happens, and in my experience it can be beneficial.

Cole,

I don't think anyone will blame you for this flame war

The guy in Portarlington - Steve Byrne - has a LOT of sparring/competition time (as do most Bujinkan teachers including the grandmaster Hatsumi and the master teachers) and none of them in general, teach sparring or grappling or "competition" dynamics within the Bujinkan system. Why? Because they have peronally found them to be non-productive in the realm of actual combat - of which they all have some experience - compared to the methodology of teaching which does occur - techniques, drills, skillset aquistion etc. That's THEIR opinion.

What were the rules of the competition? Were they reality orientated (i.e. allowing as much as possible but still keeping it safe for competitors)? I'm not attacking here, I don't know Steve Byrne personally, I'm genuinely interested.

What's their actual combat experience BTW? If they're getting into a lot of fights that's not healthy. I could be taking this out of context. Can you fill me in please.

As for skill acquisition, what I've seen of Bujinkan classes does not lend itself to skill development.

Now... at the same time... i HAVE sparred and grappled in the Bujinkan. Its a good excersise for reflexes and lots of other things but the way we do it, it is not geared to a toe-to-toe mindset like ring-based martial sports.

Allow me to clarify some things.

I teach the same techniques and use the same training methods to athletes for MMA competition, as I do with 4 year old girls, law enforcement officers, college professors, etc who have no interest in competing. By convention, Functional JKD is the term used to describe those who train in a realistic, Alive manner, but do not train at the Frequency, Intensity, and Duration of a competitor.

There is no different ways of fighting/self defence. There's not an MMA way, a Kenpo way, a Bujinkan way, an Aikido way. Fighting is fighting is fighting. If we took two eskimos, told them about fighting, and gave them equipment (mats, groin guard, boxing gloves, gum shield) and told them to spar with each other every day and see what happens, in 6 months we'd come back and see what they're doing looks like low level mixed martial arts. It would be bad boxing, bad judo, and bad positions on the ground. I did not make this stuff up, nor did my coach or his coach before him. The true nature of combat (used in an unarmed sense) reveals itself each day through honest practices.

Hope this explains it better,
Peace Out,
Colm