Cylonic Irritation

c0y0te

OK.... so there I am last night, having posted the usual review, lying in bed thinking about the episode again and then specifically on something that was nagging me about it, and about one of the central plot devices being used (namely the *human* models of cylons)... and I realised I've hit a problem with all of this.

All this meandering by the way relates to the implications in last nights ep that perhaps el presidento or our fav. BSG commander adama may be cylon agents... and thats where my problems start:)

So.. settle down, make a cofee and prepare to be patient while I describe this because its a bit convoluted and head wrecking, but I'm sure you intelligent souls out there will be able to make sense of it . One thing I ask is that if you can provide any answers to these questions - please do so without using spoilers. If you have an answer, but cannot prove it without quoting a spoiler or some external knowledge of the show, refrain but maybe leave a knowing statement to the extent that we will 'just have to trust you' for now

Right then, lets deal with some foundation stuff first....the facts as I understand them...

cylons vs humans, draw 0-0 after injury time

Humans create robots. Robots rebel. War breaks out and rages for approx 40 years or so, and then for reasons still unknown to me [*1] a truce is agreed between both sides, a space station (armistace?) is built on borders between human and cylon territories and is to be used for ambassadorial duties to maintain the peace. 20 years passes, no cylons show ever, then BOOM. At the start of the mini-series timeline we have the cylon attack on caprica and the space station kicking off the main plotline.

[*1] First Question - Why exactly did the cylons sue for peace at this time?

Now it gets to the interesting bits...

To err is human?

If cylons have held the peace for 20 years, and developed the human models in this time, then some possibilities exist which send me off into several directions as follows...

Direction 1: Teen Cylons

We could assume that *human* model cylons were engineered during the peace time - which means that all models would have to be less than 20 years old... but we know from some of the models we have seen to date that this cannot be so.. which then means that either cylons are using a 'clone-like' process to speed grow/build the models to specific ages or else... they engineered these human models long before the peace treaty.

Direction 2: Granny Cylons

If we assume they engineered these *human* models long before the peace treaty, we are talking 40+ years ago in the time line. Perhaps longer. If they had that technology then at their disposal - they why [*1] did they sue for peace?

The Master Plan

The problem I have with all of this is as follows... if el presidento (or anyone else at her age group for that matter) is a cylon, then either she was fast-grown cloned (which could fit with timeline) or else she was implanted as a sleeper many decades ago by cylons DURING the original war. If she was fast-cloned.. it would be hard to inflitrate her into human society to replace an existing human because all of the relationships, memories, experiences etc. could never be reproduced... so that wrecks my head right there.

Then we have the issue of sleeper or non-sleeper infiltration which brings me to...

Cylon Project Management

So - standard project mgmt issues ... TIME/COST/QUALITY triangle (for those that don't understand this, each apex of triangle can impact on other if you slide in one direction or the other instead of perfect balance. In other words, you could improve quality, but it would probably cost more and take longer, or you might reduce time which would save money but impact on quality etc.

Now - the cylons could throw fast-cloned people or sleepers into human society, but how well would they integrate. If we are talking serious MASTER PLAN here, with decades of planning, to the extent that when they attack and blow 90% of the humans away their sleeper el-presidento happens to be in the right place, and the right time (37th in line??) to take power... then their inflitration method must be sleeper type with no knowledge of their cylon origins. However sleepers are less effective and efficient at inflitration as we have already seen (e.g. bsg-boomer struggles against programming in WATER episode). If they don't user sleepers, real agents will have harder time integrating .. and just how do they fake an existing human with all those pre-existing relationships, memories etc.

So - you can see where I'm going with this.... HOW CAN WE HAVE CYLON HUMANS OVER 20 YEARS OLD in the first place unless they either fast-clone or infiltrated them decades ago?

And even when you can answer the above, how can they infiltrate them to such an extent into human society?

And then...if I go with logic and agree that they must have had the technology decades ago, and go with the HUGE master plan of infiltration in advance of second war for decades, they why didn't they just obliterate humans back then when they had the tech to do so?..... or to put it another way...

Why did the cylons agree to peace treaty? :eek:

It's doing my head in (as you can see) and I'm going round and round in cyclic arguments myself, hence the title of my post cylonic irritation :cool:

Over to you BSG heads.... save me from my distraction

c0y0te

Ivan

You're right.















That is rather convoluted.


You're over analysing. Take a step back. Breath in, breath out.
...its a good show.
Move on.

seagizmo

Seriously mate, that's just a little too much.

It's suppose to be entertainment! There isn't an exam at the end!

Good post though, wonder if the writers even go that deep

SG

c0y0te

Well... I'm working from home today and had some time on my hands so decided to see if there is logic behind the insanity ... because I can't fathom the logic at the mo and I'm enjoying this series so much that I want to understand it.

Tis like B5 in a way once you get into the 5 year story arc, and the various themes and overtones, and to a lesser extent like the way Farscape handled itself.

In fact - no one does the 'chip in head' better than farscape. Scoprius anyone? :rolleyes:

c0y0te

seagizmo

c0y0te wrote:

In fact - no one does the 'chip in head' better than farscape. Scoprius anyone?

c0y0te

So true, that scorpie story was pretty good alright. Wonder when the movie is coming out.

SG

MisterAnarchy

How do you know the cylons are cloned ?
The Human cylon models must be at most 10 year old technology .
But the models were probably developed to be fully grown from the first stage .
They were implanted with memories and many of them seem to come from remote colonies where not much is known of their past.
Number 6 turned up 2 years ago ,Boomer probably 6 years ,just before military school.
Were the cylons modelled on specific human beings whose memories were copied in part and transferred to the cylons ?
That may explain them not being detected.This would also explain why only 12 models exist.
The cylons agreed to the peace treaty because they were losing the battle and left to ensure their survival.
In the interim their technology has advanced much faster than the humans who no doubt felt they had seen the last of the cylons.
The human cylons are vague in the show.
Last nights episode seemed to indicate that Lee Obens had super strength by the way he broke his chains.
This soul transferring to a new body is puzzling however as this makes me wonder who exactly are the cylons.
Could it be one entity controlling all cylons,one mainframe ,one God.
Thats my thought anyway,

ishmael whale

The inspiration for the space station etc is probably the Korean armistice, which features a similar scenario of an uneasy peace. There have been reports over the years of tunnelling by North Korea, seen as evidence of a plan for a surprised attack.

Within the BSG scenario, it seems reasonable to suggest that the cylons saw they were being defeated and therefore agreed to peace as a tactic. They presumably waited until they felt the humans were lulled into a false sense of security, and that their own military strength had become overwhelming, before striking.

http://www.freeglossary.com/Panmunjom
“Panmunjeom (P'anmunjŏm) is a village on the border between North and South Korea, where the 1953 armistice that ended the Korean War was signed. The building where the armistice was signed still stands, and straddles the Military Demarcation Line, which runs through the middle of the Demilitarized Zone.“

http://www.lifeinkorea.com/culture/dmz/dmz.cfm?Subject=History2#The%201st%20Infiltration%20Tunnel
“North Korea began digging tunnels under the DMZ at the same time that the South and the North first launched peace talks in 1974. According to intelligence analysis, it is believed that North Korea began digging the tunnels after Kim Il-sung (North Korea's President) issued the September 25 Combat Readiness Order in 1971. In this order, he stressed the need to dig tunnels under the Demilitarized Zone, saying that one tunnel would be more effective than 10 atomic bombs and would thus be the best means to overwhelm the heavily fortified front.”

Mantel

I'd say it would be more likely that that human models where designed and made during the peacetime. We don't kow the extent of the Cylon's industial capabilities but it seems to be quite large. The don't need air so they could settle on any barren planet and mine it to bits same with gas giants.

An agressive form of clone research would be the order of the day, who needs a childhood if they can just zap an operating system in to the body. Look at all the raiders they have, we've just found out they're part organic (if it's not just the outer shell). Although it doesn't explain why there are only 12 of them, perhaps it's something to do with their "religion".

secret_squirrel

12 Cylons = 12 Apostles anyone?

bizmark

Best thread title ever

Belisarius

Its been at the back of my mind, with the whole monothism/polythism thing happening,Indeed the cylons even being a religiously motivated entity.But It would just be too outrageous let alone for America in 2004


Itd be funny though

c0y0te

I see I will have to figure this one out on my own then

c0y0te

Praetorian

c0y0te wrote:

I see I will have to figure this one out on my own then

c0y0te

Maybe the cloning works a little like space above and beyonds invitros; the clones are born as adults.

Perhaps the cylons are able to age their clones, a little like that poor man from Ukraine (using drugs)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4088345.stm

It gets very interesting if the president or Adama is a cylon, because obviously they have long histories, whereas the human looking cylons that we have seen so far on the show, don't have much past.

Maybe, human looking cyclons, are really humans that have been captured and programmed...

Ok now I'm getting confused.

c0y0te banned for a week!

c0y0te

LMFAO :eek:

Raz

Okay, so if Adama is a cylon does that mean they are able to procreate?

Peace

Cylonic Irritation or Colonic Irrigation?