ILDA, the Destroyers of Railfreight in Ireland...

P11 Comms

...as well as the engineers by default of several hudred job losses at Irish Fertilizers, along with the closing of the Kingscourt and Foynes branches have been awarded €300,000 in backdated social welfare payments.

Thus far, Platform11 has been the only rail lobby group in Ireland to point out the savage wrecking and terminal destruction these people did to most of Irish Rail's railfreight business in the country.

and we make no apology for pointing this fact out.


www.platform11.org

BrianD

Who are ILDA?

enterprise

Irish Locomotive Drivers Association

Remember the strike of 2000 - they were the group behind it.

A very nasty period in IE for lots of reasons.

A Dub in Glasgo

http://www.ilda.net/

Anybody what to shed any light on why they are responsible for the decline in Irish freight?

sliabh

I see their site says Finbarr Masterson is president. What happened to Brendan Ogle?

Forget Bertie, there is a true red socialist!

He always was good for a laugh when you heard him on the TV or radio.

P11 Comms

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

http://www.ilda.net/

Anybody what to shed any light on why they are responsible for the decline in Irish freight?

They caused 9 months of stoppages and chaos on the rail network in 2000. At the end of the strike most of Irish Rail freight customers had switched their deliveries to road and never went back to rail because they were badly burned by the rail strike.

Irish Rail had an order for dozens of new freight wagons which were also cancelled because the rail freight market in Ireland was in terminal decline by the end of the ILDA strike. It was very healthy before the ILDA strike.

There was nothing "Working Class Hero" romantic about what they did, they put hundreds of IFI workers on the dole and millions of tons of freight on the roads. We are lucky that the NDP was in full swing by then, otherwise the Government might have closed down most of the rail network. Apparently they are all patting themselves on the backs today for their "victory" - I wonder how many of the former IFI workers in rural Wicklow are still on the dole?

A classic exmple of when a union goes out of control and loses themselves in self-absorbed haze of their own paraniod idology with absolute disregard for nothing and nobody else in society. Platform11 are not anti-union in case any of you feel inclined post such comments as a follow-up. But we have no love for ILDA.

chewy

why did they strike?

im seeing alot of this, don't strike or you'll ruin your own industry ..but the industry is getting ruined anyway, sort of stuff on this site re post, ferries etc...

is there any one grouping to blame?

sliabh

chewy wrote:

why did they strike?

im seeing alot of this, don't strike or you'll ruin your own industry ..but the industry is getting ruined anyway, sort of stuff on this site re post, ferries etc...

is there any one grouping to blame?

Thinking about it in terms of blame is probably not the way to go. But for state (and semi-state) industries what often happens is that the unions use industrial action to look for something even though they know it is bad for the company because they believe the Government will step in.

In the past this was certainly true, and it's one of the reasons so many state companies are in such a mess. But EU competition and state aid regulations are making this harder and harder to do. An Post has no choice about facing up to competition, (even postal deliveries will be fair game by 2009) and the Government is (rightly in my opinion) being prohibited from helping them as that is state aid to one player in what should be a level playing field.

The game being played between management and unions has changed, the question is whether all the players realise this.

Victor

P11 Comms wrote:

...as well as the engineers by default of several hudred job losses at Irish Fertilizers

I don't understand the Irish Fertilizers comment. The fertilizer business has been undercut by imports for years and the government (and ICI?) weren't interested in propping up a business that they knew would eventually go to the wall anyway. And it helped our Kyoto figures.

enterprise

Ogle left the industry this summer to become a union official for the ESB (God help them!)

enterprise

Victor wrote:

I don't understand the Irish Fertilizers comment. The fertilizer business has been undercut by imports for years and the government (and ICI?) weren't interested in propping up a business that they knew would eventually go to the wall anyway. And it helped our Kyoto figures.

You are right Victor but the ILDA strike did cause suspension of deliveries from Marino Point to Shelton Abbey for a number of weeks, which forced IFI to close for a while.

Then IE drivers came to an agreement to let the ammonia trains run and deliveries resumed, but you could say the damage had been done and it was all down hill from there.

Scruff

oh dear god. there goes any hope of moneypoint being converted from coal to gas and any hope of even getting anywhere our koyoto agreement cause that wankstain is going make some more outrageous demands. He and the ilda really reinforced my general hatred for unions:mad: .

Calina

as far as I recall, the ILDA strike was an unofficial strike and ILDA wasn't recognised by Irish Rail at the time. But I could be wrong. Either way I didn't agree either with their strike or their court victory recently.

I'm not sure but I also think that the ILDA strike was partly based on inter-union rivalry - and if I remember rightly, they didn't exactly enjoy the support of any of the other unions active in Irish Rail.

enterprise

Calina wrote:

as far as I recall, the ILDA strike was an unofficial strike and ILDA wasn't recognised by Irish Rail at the time. But I could be wrong. Either way I didn't agree either with their strike or their court victory recently.

I'm not sure but I also think that the ILDA strike was partly based on inter-union rivalry - and if I remember rightly, they didn't exactly enjoy the support of any of the other unions active in Irish Rail.

Yes the ILDA strike was an unofficial one and IE were just as much at fault as ILDA. At the time I supported it (I was young then!) but looking back 4 years later it did so much damage to industry, passenger & more so freight. On the human resouce side of things it damaged many good friendships, and left a crater of hatred and discontent in the drivers camp with many depots drivers being spilt into two groups (ILDA & SPITU/NBRA). Those wounds of war are still not fully healed - Cork being a example, but things are getting better - slowly.

dabhal

to take a quote from platform11.org

Iarnród Éireann - 5 Quick and Easy Fixes

Every train should have an accurate destination sign on the front, even if it has to be written on a piece of card in the driver's window.

No train should leave a platform late without an announcement being made.

No train should be stopped for more than five minutes without an announcement being made as to why this has happened.

Improved cleanliness for trains.

At suburban stations, all connecting bus services and their routes should be clearly displayed on the station platforms and in all train and bus timetables. This is something which CIE has a terrible history of implementing between its three main transport companies and is a very fundamental aspect of public transport integration.

It amazing that someone has to lobby for such basic items. Shows how far IE need to go.

dowlingm

Didn't think P11 cared whether freight died or not, that passenger rail is their priority??

jbkenn

...as well as the engineers by default of several hudred job losses at Irish Fertilizers,

Beg to differ, Irish Fertilizer Industries was a "basket case" in decline anyway,and carrying it own Semi State baggage.

along with the closing of the Kingscourt and Foynes branches

I am not sure about Kingscourt, but, once the Barytes mining finished in the Silvermines, the days of railfreight to Foynes were numbered, the line terminated at the Barytes loading conveyors, there is still potential to re-open the line, now that the new European container dervice has started in Foynes

Thus far, Platform11 has been the only rail lobby group in Ireland to point out the savage wrecking and terminal destruction these people did to most of Irish Rail's railfreight business in the country.

Aided and abbetted by an equally incompotent IE management, with freight pricing structures that defy logic.

and I make no apology for pointing this fact out.

jbkenn

casey jones

Why don’t P11 make a proposal to government regarding increasing rail freight and promote this via the media who are well disposed towards this anyway? I think this would strike a chord with ordinary people be they pedestrians, cyclists or motorists. Indeed it is perhaps one of the few proposals upon which people using all of these forms of transport would agree. It requires a document indicating how tax incentives can be used and have been successfully deployed elsewhere to support railfreight. The opposition should be invited to promote this also. It seems like a no brainer to me, the only obstacle being potential loss of business to the road hauliers but this would be a politically unacceptable objection to raise.

I would imagine rail bogeys for freight could be deployed a lot quicker than passenger trains, which seem to have a long lead time between ordering and delivery. Perhaps there are bogeys available anyway if the railfreight decline is so recent. Rail freight is mainly transported outside of commuting hours so it doesn't interfere with peak passenger times as far as track or locomotive resources are concerned. The unions would see more work and possible overtime. The port tunnel will remove 9,000 lorries from the city centre daily but it will push them onto the already congested M50. The difference that moving freight onto rail would make would be immediately obvious to the public. A political, social, economic and environmental success story awaits the government. This would also provide a healthy soundbite for the ‘we’re getting there’ ads for IE along the lines of the equivalent of X number of lorry journeys transferred to rail.

What is stopping this ? I can’t believe that IE’s dispute with ILDA over a couple of months a number of years ago would outweigh the damage that unpredictable road delays must be causing to business every day. So go on P11, make a proposal to the people with the power to change things and get it out there in the public domain.

Calina

I suspect the road hauliers might have some thing to say against supporting rail transport over road transport at this stage.

sliabh

casey jones wrote:

What is stopping this ? I can’t believe that IE’s dispute with ILDA over a couple of months a number of years ago would outweigh the damage that unpredictable road delays must be causing to business every day.

The problem is that rail freight does not suit everyone. In a relatively small country like Ireland it is best used for high bulk, low value products like fertilizer, cement, ore, and so on. But we don't really have the heavy industry generating any volume of such products.

For everyone else rail is not suitable as it's point to point, runs to schedule (and running rail freight out of hours would be less suitable) and is not responsive enough.

Taking someone like Dell as an example, there is no way they could move to rail transport. They need very fast responsive transport to minimize the inventory they have in their supply chain. The extra time required to move their product to a station, load it, unload it at the far end and then deliver it to it's final destination is going to be more than they would save on the faster transport from Limerick to Dublin.

P11 Comms

casey jones wrote:

Why don’t P11 make a proposal to government regarding increasing rail freight and promote this via the media who are well disposed towards this anyway?

The problem is that within P11 we simply do not have any experts on railfreight and to hire a consultant firm would cost a fortune for a small organisation such as ours. But I agree with what you are saying, and I wish we could set up a group to deal with this aspect of rail transport.

But the reality is that it would be a seriously hard battle. That's not to say it could not be won, but we are already up to our eyes in the passenger stuff and that's in Dublin alone. For every person who contacts us regarding railfreight we get a hundred regarding DART, LUAS and Suburban Commuter issues. This is where the main action is when it comes to rail trainsport in Ireland.

However, if anybody wants to offer P11 some input on freight or any issues...

Venue:
North Star Hotel - Dublin 2 (across from Connolly Station)

from Noon to 6PM - drop in whenever you can during that time, and stay as long as you like. This will be an informal, get together with no presentations.

EVERYBODY WELCOME - P11 Members or not.

Come along a say "hello", share a few ideas and meet the lads.

Weather permitting, a walk down to Spencer Dock to view current developments will also take place in the afternoon.

If anybody wants Interconnector flyers to hand out at stations let us know in advance and we'll bring them. Looking forward to seeing you all there.

www.platform11.org

casey jones

If Ireland is unsuitable for railfreight why were IE ordering dozens of rail freight wagons in 2000 ? They weren't depending on IFI to fill them.

There is surely an opportunity to move waste (low value, high volume is there any product which is more suited to this description). Especially if we move to incineration which has to be the way to dispose of what can't be recycled. Also most recyclables are exported surely another bulky low value product suited to rail which goes right down to Dublin port as well as other ports.

What percentage of containers going to Dublin port are part of a low inventory model like Dell's?

P11 may not have the resources but the opposition does, Fine Gael are employing Bill Clinton's image consultant so why not get them to run with this. They are desperately trying to distinguish themselves from the govt as regards policy so here is a ready made opportunity. It would be a brave politician who would take the road hauliers side in this.

Passenger issues are where it's at for rail commuters but road traffic is where it's at for the vast bulk of commuters, pedestrians, cyclists and motorists.

P11 Comms

"If Ireland is unsuitable for railfreight why were IE ordering dozens of rail freight wagons in 2000 ? "

Pre-ILDA orders as well as a number of cement wagons were cancelled mainly due to the supply of cheap bulk cement by The Mighty Quinn up north. The collaspe of Bell Ferry was a huge loss as well.

The reality is that in 2000 at a time when IE railfreight was a critical stage, the ILDA strike started and tore the heart out of what was left to the point were there is almost nothing now in comparison. It was the final blow in a series of tragic events.

9 months of absolute chaos for passenger and freight services. At one point Westport was only getting three passenger trains and week and Killarney in the middle of the tourist season was all but stopped. Unions have every right to take industrial action if they see fit, but ILDA did so at a time when IE railfreight was on it's knees (due totally to events outside their control).

P11 Comms

casey jones wrote:

P11 may not have the resources but the opposition does, Fine Gael are employing Bill Clinton's image consultant so why not get them to run with this. They are desperately trying to distinguish themselves from the govt as regards policy so here is a ready made opportunity. It would be a brave politician who would take the road hauliers side in this.

Passenger issues are where it's at for rail commuters but road traffic is where it's at for the vast bulk of commuters, pedestrians, cyclists and motorists.

We have no special relationship with any poltical party so we can hardly ask them for funds. Where there could be an opening in the years to come would be when road tolling kicks in. Then major logistic companies such as Flancare will start to look for alternatives to paying tolls on every lorry. That's when railfreight will start looking really commercially attractive again and such an oppertunity may arise. Right now the whole thing is in a state of flux.

Trojan

You've reminded me of 2000 - that was a complete nightmare... I guess it's unfair of me to look from a position of employment in a tech company, but the damage I see caused by unions in these types of cases doesn't leave any union in a good light.

Victor

sliabh wrote:

(and running rail freight out of hours would be less suitable)

Some freight is run in the middle of the night at the moment, I'm not sure how the costs work out - while you are maximizing infrastruture use, it mean maintaining a certain level of staffing at central control level.

cdebru

how are ILDA to blame

afaik ILDA represented about 40% of train drivers in IE
they were unhappy with the representation they were getting from SIPTU and the NBRU
they setup their own union the company refused to recognise or deal with them and went ahead and did a deal with siptu/nbru
ILDA drivers could not vote on this deal
which meant that including the members of those unions that could vote and voted against it and the ILDA a minority of drivers had voted for the deal
the deal was implemented ILDA objected and refused to work the new rosters and they were suspended

Now the problem is that you have a cosy cartel between management and the unions
the NBRU is not particularly a very democratic union for example the leader Liam Tobin is not elected directly by the membership
the president of the union Martin Byrne was elected to his position over 10 years ago
Siptu is run by liberty hall so it really doesn't matter who is elected because the decisions are made there not by the branch

the company will only recognise these 2 unions to represent the driving grade

to blame the ILDA alone for any problems that came from that dispute is unfair why should over 40% of drivers be forced into membership of trade unions they dont trust or want to belong to

sliabh

cdebru wrote:

why should over 40% of drivers be forced into membership of trade unions they dont trust or want to belong to

A lot of companies have single union agreements. One place I worked the agreement specified that the one union was SIPTU and you had no choice about membership, you had to join. That is as unfair as preventing people from having union membership.

Victor

cdebru wrote:

they setup their own union

Do I have it right that they didn't have enough people to form a union?

cdebru

Victor wrote:

Do I have it right that they didn't have enough people to form a union?

no they could never have enough people to form a union there are not enough train drivers in the country

i should have said they set up their own drivers association

but even now that they are in the union IE still has a problem recognising them afaik

cdebru

sliabh wrote:

A lot of companies have single union agreements. One place I worked the agreement specified that the one union was SIPTU and you had no choice about membership, you had to join. That is as unfair as preventing people from having union membership.

yeah very unfair

afaik Siptu also did a deal with connex for the luas before they had even hired any staff so you have to join siptu if you are working for connex in Ireland