NEED ADVICE:Halogen Lights

JosephF

I am putting up timber on a celling,I need advice on how to fit the halogen lights to the timber celling
Any help,
Thanks in advance for help,

Regards,
Joseph
PS:It involves removing to standard lights out of the way.

Reyman

When you say halogen lights do you mean down-lighters recessed in the ceiling ?

yop

Apologies for jumping in on your thread but someone mentioned two different types of down lights?
One been better than the other, anyone have any idea what these are?

Capt'n Midnight

Me hates halogens - too harsh especially in pubs, nice soft lighting is what you want not glare /RANT

The ceiling is plaster is it not ?
so all you do is fit the light to the plaster and cut a hole in the wood - you were going to glue the wood to the ceiling ?

We've got ressed lights at home with screw in bulbs, they just keep blowing - can you get an adaptor or change the insides so they take a standard bayonet fitting. - I've found a screw in fluorescent but it's about three times the price of a similar bayonet fitting fluorescent - me hates electiricians who use cheap fittings ..

Reyman

There's two types of downlighters. One that operate at 220v and another that operate at 12/24volts. The lower voltage ones should be used in places where there's some risk eg. bathrooms.

You have to buy a tool to cut a hole in the ceiling -- available in different sizes depending on the light you buy ....75mm is typical.

Upstairs a problem is the insulation above the ceiling ----these lights get quite hot and it's necessary to be sure that the fitting above the ceiling is not covered in insulation. Be careful of this, there is a fire risk !!

The standard bulb lasts 1000 hrs which is very poor. You can get ones that last 3000/5000 hrs if you look around.

Hal1

I got 6 halogen recessed downlighters that I want to daisy-chain together on the one circut. There is no transfomer with these lights so I plan to connect them to an existing light in the room, I will be removing the existing light though so not to overload the circut, and will be using 1.5 t&e.

All I need now is a hole-saw, the diameter of the lights is 63mm can I get a hole-saw big enough and where?

Thanks

Redshift

I would recomend low voltage halogen with soft starting transformers, these will save you a fortune in bulb replacement because they heat the lamp element before applying full power gradually They take about two seconds to come on fully but the bulbs will last for years. I put these all over the house about four years ago and only changed the lamps for the first time last week as the lamps started failing in quick succession but after four years i'm not complaining. be sure to use the ceramic connectors enclosed in a coffin box for each lamp because the heat will degrade the plastic terminal connectors.

danxtremeclean

Hi all

Just to reply to one of the posts here, i believe the reason halogen bulbs blow so much is they dont react well to being switched on and off much because of the amount of heat the produce. I'm told tht the answer is to fit dimmer switches and this gradually brings them to full power...

thanks
dan

Redshift

Halogens are dimmable but this comes with a penalty on lamp life because the lamp needs to run at full power to allow the halogen gas to re-deposit the tungsten molecules back onto the filament. If the lamp is running too cool this deposition is not as effective and leads to the tungsten being deposited onto the glass resulting in blackening and reduced light output.
But as Dan says above the biggest killer of these lamps is the application of full power straight away on switching on

charlesanto

A GU10 bulb is a LED version of a Halogen bulb they last 30 time longer ??? fit in the same lamp ???
http://www.prime.notions.dsl.pipex.com/gu10_multiled.htm

patrido

JosephF wrote:

I am putting up timber on a celling,I need advice on how to fit the halogen lights to the timber celling
Any help,
Thanks in advance for help,

Regards,
Joseph
PS:It involves removing to standard lights out of the way.

I think on a timber ceiling, you might need to use special light fittings that can be mounted on a flammable surface. These have a symbol on them, which is an inverted triangle with an F in it. Its usually beside the "double box" symbol.

patrido

Reyman wrote:

Upstairs a problem is the insulation above the ceiling ----these lights get quite hot and it's necessary to be sure that the fitting above the ceiling is not covered in insulation. Be careful of this, there is a fire risk !!

recessed downlights are a fire risk in general.

firstly a plasterboard ceiling is a fire barrier (required by the building regulations) and cutting holes in it reduces your protection.

secondly halogens and transformers get quite hot and can overheat, especially if as Reyman has said there is insulation over or close to the fitting. you need to leave at least 50mm all around the fitting and make sure the transformer is well ventilated too.

i would strongly recommend using either firehoods or fire rated fittings. you still have to keep the insulation back, but they form a fire barrier, and restore the fire rating of the ceiling. they also bring the ceiling back in line with the acoustic requirements of the building regs. i would expect them to be mandatory in a few years.
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Lighting_Menu_Index/Fire_Rated_Downlights_Gu/index.html
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Lighting_Menu_Index/Fire_Rated_Downlights_Lv/index.html
http://www.intalite.co.uk/down/html/fitting/firehood.htm
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Lighting_Menu_Index/Fire_Cover_Downlight/index.html

Snaplite make downlights that can be covered with insulation, but you must use their own lamps (bulbs).
www.snaplite.co.uk

patrido

yop wrote:

Apologies for jumping in on your thread but someone mentioned two different types of down lights?
One been better than the other, anyone have any idea what these are?

There is probably more debate on low voltage versus mains, than on MacCarthy vs Keane, and it's almost as entrenched. As soon as you decide on one, someone will tell you the other one is better .

For what it's worth, both have their disadvantages, but I think for the home owner, low voltage is better.
Mains are simpler (and cheaper initially) to install as there is no transformer. However, they are (in theory at least) not as safe as low voltage. The lamp life is horrendous, though this can be improved by up to about 40% by using dimmer switches. Some people say that when cheaper mains lamps blow they can trip the MCB. Has anyone experienced this?

Low voltage have the disadvantage of an extra device (the transformer) which is another possible point of failure, and another source of heat. Best practice is to use one transformer per light fitting rather than sharing a bigger transformer between a number of fittings, but this is more costly. You are also very restricted in terms of cable length (from transformer to fitting) as voltage drop is much greater for low voltage cabling, though this can be offset by using much thicker cable where necessary (and it shouldn't usually be necessary).

The quality of light from low voltage is better (though I'm sure that can be disputed), and the lamp life is much better (2 to 4 times better). Most modern transformers have a built in soft start mechanism, are dimmable (without having to derate the dimmer switch), have built in overload and overheat protection with auto reset. There is a much better choice of lamps available in terms of wattage and beam angle/width, and the lamps give out more lumens per watt. And theoretically they are more efficient - depending on transformer losses.

Running Cost...
well all halogens are expensive to run. There are CFL versions (for mains/GU10 fittings) available, but I'm not sure about the quality of the light, and they cannot normally be dimmed. They claim to last 15000 hours and are usually available in 7 or 9 watt.

There are also LED versions for both low voltage and mains. These claim to last 50000 hours and consume only a watt or two. The cheaper LED versions are mostly bluish white, and as far as i can tell none are as bright as the halogen equivalents. I don't think they can be dimmed either.

One type that looks very promising are these, which go into a low voltage fitting.
http://www.colorkinetics.com/products/pro/lights/iwmr/

I contacted their sellers in ireland (http://www.ecilighting.ie/) and this was their response.

The Color Kinetics iwmr gives a white light ok but it will not replace a
dichroic in output,at the moment it is equivalent to about 20 to 25w in
output,Color Kinetics are bringing a new one out first quarter of next year
that will be nearer to 50w.Price for each iwmr is 75.00 euro and I have to
come back to you to confirm if you it can be dimmed.

... he never did get back to me about the dimming though.

The price is shocking (especially as I might have about 90 in my new house), but I did a cost projection for these against low voltage, mains, and cfls over their lifetime of 50000 hours, and these outperform the others by a massive margin.

Finally, it's always worth buying branded lamps (like osram), and buy them in bulk at your local electrical wholesalers or over the web. buying them in ones and twos in the local shop will cost a fortune.