Important Credit Card Info

okidoki987

In the "old days" if your Credit card was stolen and used fraudently, you were not liable (as the signature 99% of the time) would not match the signature on the card. Now we have "Chip and Pin" cards and if somebody steals and uses your card, you are now liable for the full lot!
Why?
Because your Pin Number is unique to you (after changing the number the CC company gave you to one that you will remember), you will have had to have given that number to somebody else to use your card, or have it written down on the card.
This means the CC Companies will save a fortune on FRAUD because if the card is stolen and used, they will insist on getting their money back from the cardholder.
Never write the PIN number on the card!

D!ve^Bomb!

Hairy Japanese Bastards!!!

RuggieBear

okidoki987 wrote:

In the "old days" if your Credit card was stolen and used fraudently, you were not liable (as the signature 99% of the time) would not match the signature on the card. Now we have "Chip and Pin" cards and if somebody steals and uses your card, you are now liable for the full lot!
Why?
Because your Pin Number is unique to you (after changing the number the CC company gave you to one that you will remember), you will have had to have given that number to somebody else to use your card, or have it written down on the card.
This means the CC Companies will save a fortune on FRAUD because if the card is stolen and used, they will insist on getting their money back from the cardholder.
Never write the PIN number on the card!

That was the whole point of introducing the chip and pin....so that the CC company could simply avoid paying out for fraud (which is increasing). So ****ing Cynical it's funny.

But it gets better, there is now a massive increase in the chance of wrongdoers to getting your pin number as everytime you use the number tablet (which tend to be on visually exposed counters), there is the possibilty that someone will see you entering your pin. Especially in busy shops with longlines of customers all waiting behind you.

So not only are the CC covering their asses, there are exposing thier customers to an increased risk of fraud! Arseholes

seamus

Have you a link for this?

Afaik, if you don't make a purchase then you're not liable, simple as that. It's still very very possible to steal credit card data and use it without a PIN. I'm not sure if skimmers work on the chip & pin ones, but either way, anyone can make a purchase over the internet without your pin, so you can't be liable, since your pin is not required.

eth0_

Yes, post your source please, this sounds unlikely...

okidoki987

Page 4 of today's Irish Indo
"Chip and Pin" users warned they'll be liable for card fraud.
It's on the Internet site but you have to register

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/index.php3?ca=44&issue_id=11745


To buy something now, you will need to type your 4 digit PIN number into a terminal so if you don't know the number, it won't authorise the transaction!
Not sure how it's going to work with over the phone purchases?

eth0_

That link doesn't work.
Can't you just paste the article in?

koneko

okidoki987 wrote:

Not sure how it's going to work with over the phone purchases?

Any shops that don't have the chip and pin machines will just go old-style (sign for the purchase). Over the phone and online continues as normal. You never needed to physically sign something when you are buying online/phone order anyway so nothing changes there.

seamus

Well, I won't have one of these new cards till 2006, so it won't be mandatory till then at least.

That Indo article is nice and vague. It doesn't specify what kind of fraud, in what context, and what kind of losses. Probably them picking up on something obscure and making a big deal out of it, as they tend to do.

Anyone else heard anything about this?

uberwolf

eth0_ wrote:

That link doesn't work.
Can't you just paste the article in?

USERS of the new-style credit cards featuring PIN numbers will have to bear liability for any losses due to fraud. So say the banks, and so the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority warns.

Many will see this as a typical high-handed action by financial institutions, more concerned for their own convenience than that of their customers.

These same customers are warned to hide a card when using it so as to avoid "shoulder surfing". The phrase is a colourful addition to the language, but its mere invention shows that the innovation is not entirely safe. Disabled people at risk from the shoulder surfers will be permitted to use the old method. Why not extend the concession to anyone who wishes to avail of it?

RuggieBear

I'm pretty sure you will only be liable for POS tranactions. It's a win win the shops and the CC companies. The shops don't have to check sigs anymore so they can't be liable.....

RuggieBear

Here's an article with some comments.

http://software.silicon.com/security/0,39024655,39125723,00.htm

The Corinthian

okidoki987 wrote:

In the "old days" if your Credit card was stolen and used fraudently, you were not liable (as the signature 99% of the time) would not match the signature on the card. Now we have "Chip and Pin" cards and if somebody steals and uses your card, you are now liable for the full lot!

Rubbish. I have a friend who applied for a credit card recently. While on holiday, the approved card arrived, along with her PIN in a separate mail a few days later. Both got swiped from her letterbox and the first she knew of this was when €1,400 was pulled out of her account on a direct debit. She got a full refund from the bank that issued the card.

RuggieBear

i had an atm card stolen last year. Somehow they knew the pin no....lost the bones of 1000euro...bank told me tough luck...my fault as the pin no. had been compromised. Got a feeling we will be hearing this response more often than not.

The_Cor...Perhaps your friend had clear evidence that that she had never received/authorised the card or something...?

egan007

okidoki987 wrote:

Never write the PIN number on the card!

:rolleyes:

BuffyBot

Never write the PIN number on the card!

Sweet Holy Jesus..wasn't that obvious to people by now (I hope it would be).

The point with fraud is all relative - the context of the fraud will determine the banks response - be it a Chip and Pin card or signature authorised card. Each case is individual, so a vague article such as that serves very little purpose really.

Imposter

BuffyBot wrote:

Never write the PIN number on the card!

Sweet Holy Jesus..wasn't that obvious to people by now anyway I hope.

You would hope so cause it'd be useless when the number is on the card in the machine when you need it. Much better to write it on a piece of paper.

RuggieBear

Imposter wrote:

You would hope so cause it'd be useless when the number is on the card in the machine when you need it. Much better to write it on a piece of paper.

lol...... :eek:

Dave

You could always try remembering it.... Crazy I know, but it works for me.

RuggieBear

Dave wrote:

You could always try remembering it.... Crazy I know, but it works for me.

four numbers.....are you mad!!? :eek:

Hagar

If they are really serious about cutting down on fraud why don't they put a photo on the card.?
It can't be that expensive to do if Dublin Bus will give you a photo id for free in O'connell street.

okidoki987

Not rubbish.
If you didn't receive your card and the original Pin number they sent you and somebody takes money out of the account, then you couldn't be liable as you never received the card in the first place!
If however you change the PIN number to your own number after receiving the card and the original PIN and money is taken out or goods bought in person, you are now liable as nobody else should/could know the number.
Unfortunately this is going to be a fact of life and the Banks will make sure they get their money back.

somano

Have a look at this site (under consumer publications & factsheets) and also this site for more info.

Skyuser

I use chip and pin in Tesco and they have very visible pin terminals. I'm sure people have seen my pin.

The Corinthian

okidoki987 wrote:

Not rubbish.
If you didn't receive your card and the original Pin number they sent you and somebody takes money out of the account, then you couldn't be liable as you never received the card in the first place!

I’ll admit that the case I highlighted was a grey area.

Of course all this, from what I can see, affects only cash withdrawals. In fairness, if you lose your normal ATM card with you pin written on it I don’t think you’ve much of a case for a refund from the bank, any more than you would if you’d lost your wallet full of cash. Banks are making similar noises with regard to those scammed on-line too and a moral case can be made that while a bank is responsible for the money in their safekeeping, it’s not responsible for the gullibility or incompetence of its clients.

okidoki987

I think you will find that if somebody else uses your card in person to buy
GOODS, you will be liable for all the cost!
Reason: If you buy goods in person you will have to key in the PIN number which should only be known to you. The major problems with "Chip and Pin" will only start to become known as cardholders become liable for the full amount if fraud is committed in person rather then over the phone.
If somebody does see your PIN number, they also need the card or a clone of it to make it work.

seamus

okidoki987 wrote:

I think you will find that if somebody else uses your card in person to buy
GOODS, you will be liable for all the cost!
Reason: If you buy goods in person you will have to key in the PIN number which should only be known to you. The major problems with "Chip and Pin" will only start to become known as cardholders become liable for the full amount if fraud is committed in person rather then over the phone.
If somebody does see your PIN number, they also need the card or a clone of it to make it work.

If retailers don't have chip & PIN terminals then the person can make a charge on your card as normal. It's the credit card company's responsibility to prove that every terminal in the shop, where the purchase was made, was a chip & PIN terminal at the time the purchase was made. Otherwise, refund applies as normal.

Victor

BuffyBot wrote:

Sweet Holy Jesus..wasn't that obvious to people by now (I hope it would be).

Actually, there is an absurd number of people who have "1111", etc. as a PIN.

RuggieBear wrote:

four numbers.....are you mad!!? :eek:

I often can't remember my main bank PIN, but can type it in from memorising the layout.

BuffyBot

Actually, there is an absurd number of people who have "1111", etc. as a PIN

Absurd doesn't even come close to describing it!

spongebob

The problem will move from places like hardware stores to restaurants that do takeaway.

How is the cc company to know whether you showed up at the counter in the takeaway or whether they delivered to your home after you shouted the cc number (and no pin) down the phone line.

M

EKRIUQ

Those chip and pin terminals are been phased in, as far as I know Bank of Ireland haven't started issing chip cards where as AIB have most of theirs changed. If done properly the card doesn't actually leave your possesion!

You position the card into the pin terminal and then just follow instruction's. If a person can't remember their pin number the cashier has a bypass function and it just reverts back to the signature.

Where if affects is restaurants, soon the days of handing your credit card to the waiter will be over as you'll have to be present to enter your pin. Having used the system I think it just slows the whole process down because it has to phone through to get authorised.

As for pictures on cards I can't see why the major banks don't go down this route, when I lived in America 10 years ago my picture was on my bankcard and Visa card!

BuffyBot

I think it just slows the whole process down because it has to phone through to get authorised.

When a non-chip and pin card is swiped, the electronic terminals still dial for authorisation, so in the majority of cases it takes no more time.

TSB used to have pictures on the back of their Visa cards once upon a time,, however it's a non-standard security feature AFAIK, so it's very little use when it comes to preventing fraud (criminals clone the card details unto a non-photo bearing card and retailers won't know the difference)

GreeBo

RuggieBear wrote:

four numbers.....are you mad!!? :eek:

just put it in your phone under CC Num.... :rolleyes:

seamus

GreeBo wrote:

just put it in your phone under CC Num.... :rolleyes:

Or better yet, just write it on the back of your card! That way, when you take your card out, you can remind yourself of your PIN before you stick the card in the slot!

Writing down PINs is a bad idea, no matter where you write it. Someone who takes a girl's bag, has their phone and cards. Someone who mugs a guy will take their phone and wallet. Any thief with good sense would check the phonebook for PINs and alarm codes.

Sarsfield

If all liability passes to the cardholder, CC usage will drop dramatically as the media starts reporting the scale of victims losses.

I can't see the CC companies enforcing this even if they legally can. The cost of fraud may be huge, but the losses from reduced usage would be even greater.

Re PINs, I write mine in 'coded' form, hidden in longer numbers that look like phone numbers. I also have a few 4-digit random numbers written down as a cunning subterfuge :cool:

Victor

Muck wrote:

How is the cc company to know whether you showed up at the counter in the takeaway or whether they delivered to your home after you shouted the cc number (and no pin) down the phone line.

By phone, they could ask for the credit card Security Code (actually, I'm not sure how safe that is) or the could provide the delivery guy with a mobile swipe unit.

If you collect, they can ask you to swipe your card when you collect.

I imagine few takeaway bills exceed €50.

dhoun

I've recently been skimmed for 900 euro on my visa card - no idea how. I am assuming that I will not be liable for this, especially after reading the following from the Chip and pin Ireland site ...


The fraud liability rule does not apply in circumstances where the card and cardholder are not present - such as mail-order, telephone order, or internet purchases - liability for fraud in these circumstances is dependent on each individual case.