How to handle a possible review and overpayment

peannoir

I could not quite think of a suitable title to cover the issue at hand.

Just wondering if anyone here might have had some experience with an issue I have come up against.

The bones of it are that an elderly person who was on non con pension, omitted to declare a property that came into their pocession about 5 years ago, during a number of reviews that were done on their pension entitlement. Due to a change in personal circumstances 2 years ago, they are now on a contributory pension.

Despite what I am sure at least some of the responses will suggest, there was no intended deceit in this. The property was a derelict, uninhabitable house with a bit of a back garden that has remained unused. It had been their childhood home and had gone out of the family pocession many years earlier.

When they were doing their reviews, they sent in all their bank and income details but assumed (wrongly they know now) that because this property was not being used or no income of any sort coming from it, it did not count. They also thought because the whole process had gone through Revenue etc, that everything was sorted out.

They are trying to get their affairs sorted out now and it was during this process that the problem was noted.

So here is my question. Would anyone have any experience with something like this, ideas on how this might work it self out? They are aware that it might come round to the SW deciding that there was a period of overpayment and they might have to pay back a figure but it is whatever other actions that might be taken against them that they are worried about.

I am not expecting legal advice but just if anyone had any thoughts.

They are going to get in touch with the SW in the next few days, but are pretty worried and I am trying to get as much information to reassure them before hand.

TIA

AugustRain

I had a whole response typed up and I lost it😩

Basically please reassure this person that there will be no criminal proceedings if any kind. The most that will happen is that a SW inspector will call to the house but even that is unlikely.
This is a daily occurrence now in the Dept and it might help to look at it in this way.

The money used to pay pensions comes from the public purse so if some of it is paid out incorrectly then it has to go back to the public purse, if possible, one way or the other. There’s no element of anyone being fined or punished in any way as there is with Revenue.
If this person is in an overpayment and they died, still in the overpayment, then the dept will pursue their estate for the money.
Indeed many people waiting to benefit from an estate are shocked to discover that a chunk has been taken from the estate by DSP due to an overpayment being discovered after the deceased passed on.
This brings us to your loved one.
When they were awarded non con pension they got a letter telling them that it was their responsibility to notify the dept of any “change in circumstances”

Inheriting the family home would fall into that category, as non con is means tested. As it happens, they didn’t notify the department, but they have now so all will be well.
The property is means tested on its capital value.
So say this property is worth 100000

The first 20000 is disregarded

The next 10000 is worth €10 each week

The next 10000is worth €20 each week

The balance (€60000) is worth €4 for each €1000

So each week the property valued at 100000 is worth 60x4=240+10=250+20=270

So that is €270 of means every week.

If your loved one was getting the max non con of €278 then that €270 would have been deducted € for €.

All of the pension that was paid out erroneously is owed back.
I’ll be around all day feel free to ask any more questions

endofrainbow

Periodic letters are sent out asking if there have been any changes in circumstances, it's also in the conditions of receiving any payment you do same.

Unfortunately pleading ignorance is not a defence and overpayment will need to be paid back. This can be worked out between the recipient and the DSP.

HildaOgdenx

You mentioned that the person is elderly so maybe it might be an idea for them to jot down some of the facts before they ring the DSP.

Things like what year they acquired the property and whatever else might be useful to include. The sooner they ring and get it sorted the better. It will lift the worry for them, rather than brooding over making the call.

peannoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123930220#Comment_123930220

Firstly AugustRain, thank you so much for taking the time (twice) to respond and with such a detailed and reassuring answer, I really appreciate it.

I have done a little bit of study in Probate so that was one thing that jumped out at me, and indeed it is one of the reasons why this person is so concerned about rectifying this matter. They do not want to leave any issues for the benefactors of their estate when they pass. That and the fact that they are very worried that it would be thought that they were knowingly doing something wrong. I think despite what some might believe, the vast majority of people do try to do things in the right way but more and more over the years, the systems have become extraordinarily convoluted and confusing even for those of us who have some ability to navigate it.

If you have time, you might be able to answer this for me. So the property in question is not the family home as such. It was their family home nearly 90 years ago but is a ruin now. I just mentioned that to give some context but its probably not relevant.

I am assuming we will be asked to submit a valuation of the property. Would you know if it is the current market price valuation or the valuation at the time that it came into their procession? It is possible that the overall value now may be slightly more owing to the value of property in the area as a whole, so that might have some bearing on calculations.

And also, would there have to be a full review with current savings etc submitted or would they just look at the time when they person was on Non Contributory…if that makes any sense.

And finally, if there was a decision made that repayment was due, I assume some sort of arrangement could be made to repay it in portions. The pension is their only income.

Once again, thank you.

peannoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123931633#Comment_123931633

Hi there, thank you for response.

As I mentioned in the op, there were indeed a few reviews done after the property came into pocession, but as I said, there was a lack of understanding on the wording used. It happens. There is no attempt to plead ignorance. Humans make mistakes. Not everyone has ill intent in their actions. The matter will hopefully be rectified soon.

peannoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123931718#Comment_123931718

Hilda, firstly, great username. One of my all time favourite characters and actors.

Anyway, yes indeed. We are getting all that info together. They are very anxious to have it dealt with asap. We just wanted to try and get a bit of insight as to what to expect. Cheers.

HildaOgdenx

Yes, my reply wasn't much help to you really, from an insight perspective. For what it's worth, I have had occasion to ring the DSP once or twice over the years, and found them very helpful.

My thinking was that putting off making a call leads to more worry, in the long run. Especially for an elderly person. And having points jotted down beforehand, keeps things clear, and helps with confidence in making the call. It sounds like you have it all in hand, anyway.

All the best.

peannoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123932628#Comment_123932628

Hi Hilda,

Not at all. Your response was most helpful and I appreciate all. You are completely correct. Even though we have documents with dates of transfer etc, piecing together some other potentially important information has been at times a challange. When we get to phonecall stage, it will more than likely be myself who deals with it.

Ive had mixed experiences with the Department to be honest, having had to deal with them alot over the years. It can be a very mixed bag in my experience…..and I used to be one of them!!! Anyway, hopefully all will be worked out without too much drama. Thank you again and best wishes. P