Acceptable behaviour/social mores in 1800s

Janey Mack

Hoping there an alternative to watching Downton Abbey :)

Does anyone recommend some reading?

I’ve done a fair bit of research on my great grandmother and would love to understand her life in the context of the social mores of the time. How much did it impact her life choices and would she have been ostracised by her peers. Talking 1870s and 1880s so not sure how much influence Victorian prudishness had in Ireland at that time.

Some of her history - family elevated enough to get written up in Burke’s peerage but her father was a ne’er do well of intemperate habits. Her parents were divorced but could not remarry. He was a regular in the newspapers for all the wrong reasons.

She was Church of Ireland but eloped to marry a Scots Irish presbyterian. He died in an accident in the States but she and their children get no mention in the newspaper report/obituary.

She remarried to a catholic when 3mths lwidowed and was about 3mths pregnant at the time. At this point she was independently wealthy.

When No.2 died - his family accused her of murder - she had “his” child 10 months later.

Remarried short while after that and died in childbirth a year or two later. Hubby no.3 inherited what little of her wealth was left and her children ended up in an orphanage.

Hubby No2’s family (mine) painted her in a very bad light but I’m more inclined to see her as a victim of her times.

Apologies for the lengthy post but would appreciate some pointers.

pinkypinky

Sounds like a fascinating woman who was perhaps ahead of her time.

What level of landed gentry were the family (or were they actually aristocracy?)

the_amazing_raisin

Sounds like a decent story in her life

Given that she was Church of Ireland, I would imagine the influence of British Victorian society was probably a lot stronger in her life than with the typical Catholic peasants

From what little I know you can probably expect a lot of Downton Abbey type behaviour, expectations of how women were effectively chattel to get married and have children

I don't think the quick remarry after becoming a widow would be frowned upon, this was a time when women basically weren't allowed work once they married so she'd effectively had to remarry to support herself

I imagine the elopement would raise some eyebrows but the subsequent marriage to a Catholic was probably the main scandal

I'm pretty sure at the time the Catholic church didn't recognise marriage between a Protestant and Catholic, so unless she converted then it's possible the family of husband 2 didn't consider the marriage valid

This is also a time when general sentiment between Catholics and Protestants wasn't great (was it ever?) so the family of the Catholic husband probably regarded her and some bloodsucking temptress leading their son to the devil, etc, etc...

Janey Mack

I must look into her mother to see if she was Catholic. If so she may have been raised Catholic. I think her parents marriage may have been a bit rushed he was still a minor. Owned over a 1000 acres in the midlands and some holdings in Meath. Definitely not aristocracy. County Sherriff/Justice of the Peace was as high as it went. They came over with Cromwell.

Husband No1 was merchant class but a lot of religious in the family too. At the time she ran away her Dad was involved in a fairly prominent court case. I suspect her husbands family would not have approved and she was marrying as well as she thought she could.

Janey Mack

Her father was very much The Wild Rover. He had a lot of assets he couldn’t access and ended up a bankrupt in debtors prison due to a very small debt. Slept on a bench in the Phoenix Park at one point then joined the Merchant Navy and away he went. Was in China, Bombay, a stevedore in Australia and then ito New York.

He returned and got involved in a very protracted court case - now case law - to win back his estate but it was quite debt ridden and he was never able to live within his means.

Mick Tator

A lot of this tale seems fishy to me. Minors need consent to marry. Where did they elope to/marry? You also mention parents were divorced. This also is suspect, as a private Act of Parliament was required in that era for divorce. It was so difficult/expensive that there were only a couple of handfuls every year, mainly by the nobility and very wealthy.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123890153#Comment_123890153

I have to say those were my thoughts too. Much of the saga seems like many family myths that get passed down.

Mick Tator

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123889877#Comment_123889877

Rather a lot of misplaced suggestions in that post.

Writing on Victorian mores and "Typical Catholic peasants’" - rather pejorative, no? Clearly you need to read up on the mores of the rural classes in Ireland in the 1800s. Their morality was very favorably commented on by travelers – it was not ‘Victorian prudery’, it was an innate sense of respect, deeply grounded in their religion.

At least you start the next sentence with “What little I know…..” It would have been better to stop there. By the period in question there were many ‘enlightened’ women, and, believe it or not, some enlightened men too!

Again, you put your foot in it with “I'm pretty sure at the time the Catholic church didn't recognise marriage between a Protestant and Catholic….” Wrong again. It did get somewhat more complicated with ‘Ne Temere’, but that wasn’t 1907.

I've said enough.

VirginiaB

To the OP, I think you need to go back to square one and search for period sources for all this. Once you have facts, you can move forward on the social history of the time.

Catholics and Protestants certainly intermarried in the 19c as reading thru parish images easily shows.

I don't mean to sound critical but I would never use the term "peasants" to describe the Irish rural population.

Janey Mack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123890153#Comment_123890153

Ok for clarity we will call my Great Great Grandfather - William and his daughter Jane.

When I say minor I mean under 21. William did not elope he married at age 18 and she was 21. I checked and it was in the United Church of England and Ireland. His father was dead at this stage not sure on his mother - at this point his uncle George was acting as his "next friend" in court as he had already landed himself in bother.

I had very little to go on until I upgraded to a newspaper subscription and the first thing I found out about Jane was her father putting an advert in the paper looking for her whereabouts (I haven't been able to find it again since). Jane married at age 19 in Glasgow, Scotland. I'm not sure what permission would be required but at that point I'm sure William would have agreed.

On William's divorce, I only have details - through newspapers - of the application but understand from later reading that it was granted. It was in the consistorial court and was for a Divorce Mensa et Thora which meant neither could remarry. I think it was the equivalent of a modern day judicial separation. William was on his wanders at this point so wasn't in court to defend himself but he came a cross as a nasty piece of work. I notice the papers tend to very much just report the facts of a case and don't add any slant but in this instance there is a newspaper for the colonies India, China etc that says "a little romance came before…" - nasty.

Janey Mack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123890232#Comment_123890232

Somebody else referenced "family lore". The thing is there isn't any. This is my father's side of the family and he and his siblings had all passed away when I was a teenager. Indeed one of the spurs to looking into the family tree was seeing if there was any longevity in the family. It's a couple of years since I did this research and have have just come back to it as I was going to chase up some cousins to see what they knew.

I was aware we had a doctor in the family (this helped me confirm I was on the right track) and that there was a protestant/catholic thing whereby - from recollection - the protestant family disowned him for marrying a catholic and the catholic's family disowned her for marrying "beneath" her - but I think that is about my grandparents (one of Jane's children). This was told to me by my Mother so pinch of salt stuff.

Almost all that I know is from the newspapers of the time and a couple of "case law" articles. I will admit that some of the testimony could be embellished but it is as good a source as I am going to get. There is a mass of data that I need to put some structure on in terms of timelines and a lot of legalise I don't understand. It is difficult to understand how William could have been so broke and yet still leave his daughter £8,000. Jane inherited a significant amount through her brother also, according to herself in court, but not reflected in the published Will info.

There are two depressing letters published online that I haven't had a chance to read properly yet, I think they are from the estate papers for the uncle that are in the national archives. Also, William was born in rural USA and returned to Ireland in his teens when his father inherited unexpectedly, his father died shortly after and he was left in a situation he had not been reared for.

There is just so much that - someday - I would like to express it in a story format but for that I would like to understand the society it all took place in.

Janey Mack

Just to clarify VirginiaB - it was not I who used the term peasants.

Mick Tator

‘A mensa et thoro’ means from 'bed and board' i.e. it's a ruling that prevents a couple from co-habiting, so yes, it's a sort of formal separation and does not permit them to remarry. The Consistory Courts were ecclesiastical and lost jurisdiction in 1857, so any ruling had to be before that date. Wives – particularly those from a landed background, or even merchants/largish farmers’ daughters – were protected by marriage settlements ; their dowries invariably were ring-fenced in one way or another, often with guarantors and the paperwork registered in the Registry of Deeds. Have you looked there?

You really need to put a structure on these events, jumping from court cases to marriage (e.g. you say “at this point his uncle George was acting as his "next friend" in court as he had already landed himself in bother”) as ‘Next Friend’ applies to a minor who does not have a guardian in proceedings, or someone who is unable to represent himself; but it also has different connotations in other matters.

Inheriting land or an estate is not always a straightforward route to cash, you need to read up on the law of entail (Fee Tail)

You also are encompassing the late Georgian and Victorian eras, and overlaying that with a transatlantic episode, so mores, social cultures and ‘behaviour’ were very different.

Structure - @VirginiaB said it , I repeat it. Write up details of each individual, then join the dots.

Janey Mack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123892401#Comment_123892401

The newspaper did say consistory court but it is post 1857. Thanks for the pointer on the Registry of Deeds which could be a great resource. William was married by special licence - could that still be in existence? Some of this may be in the estate papers. I'm remembering now why I dropped this a couple years back as it really needs a lot of time. I plan to do this properly on my retirement but went back to it because I want to chase up some of my older cousins who might have some family lore to share.

You are right re the structure - I've just discovered a good timeline option which helps but there is an awful lot of information in the newspapers (some contradictory) that needs to go in for William. This clarified for me why he was broke when he died - final judgement in one of his main cases wasn't made until after his death at which point thousands that were held in the Landed Estate Courts were released.

With the timeline I realised he returned from the US as a child of about 6 yrs giving his father time to run up some debts of his own. William himself couldn't understand how he was so broke so not sure if I will ever get my head round it. For one he was liable for the debts on an estate that his younger brother inherited from their father, but selling his tenants leases at ridiculously low rents when off his head on drink was certainly another cause. He appears to have spent a year and a half in debtors prison over a net debt of 100 pounds. Described as a broken young man on his release he turned to his brother in law for help and was cheated out of his entire estate.

I've gone off track with so much about William. My primary interest is Jane who would be more in the Victorian era. In terms of the social mores of that period - what I'd like to understand is what kind of impact her father's shenanigans would have had on her life and prospects. How common or uncommon her life was - three husbands from 3 different denominations? I mean on two occasions she fell pregnant before her husbands bodies were cold - why? Was there an imperative to remarry? Even today that would raise eyebrows - 1870s and 80s would be that period.

pinkypinky

Special Licence just means you paid money so the banns didn't have to be read out in the church. A way to convey status or privacy.

Women in that time when Jane lived had no rights. They often had no skills to gain employment. Marriage was often the only way to be looked after.

Mick Tator

Quote«For one he was liable for the debts on an estate that his younger brother inherited from their father, but selling his tenants leases at ridiculously low rents when off his head on drink was certainly another cause.»

Not quite - he was not liable; the debts probably were incurred by his brother and chargeable on the estate which he would eventually inherit; they would not have been his debts, they were debts due by the estate, hence the probable cause of your reference to the Encumbered Estates Court. Also, 'selling leases' idoesn't seem correct; leases were not sold (generally) unless there was 'Ulster Custom', and an amount of money went sideways from the existing tenant to the new tenant. From the 1870s onwards there were defined protocols for tenants to buy out their tenancies, using government cash, so there was no random off his head on drink story.

£100 in the late 1800s was a lot of money. I've a copy advert from 1895 looking for a live-in servant - Wanted - a good cook able to bake and able to superintend dairy for use by house, wages £40 per annum.

As for Jane, women in the Victorian era usually left a 2 year period before remarriage. Same for men, but in rural areas -especially when there was a family of very young children - a widower would remarry much sooner. Childminding/cooking while he ran the farm. That was the norm. Maybe Jane simply liked sex.

Janey Mack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123892966#Comment_123892966

The brother bit was complicated but I do think it was a loan taken out by the father to pay for their education. The whole estate stuff and encumbrances etc. is horrendously complicated.

On the subject of the leases - I suppose selling them was the wrong phrase he "executed the instruments" that leased the land at "ruinously" low rent for a 21 year period. The term lease is used throughout the court hearings and one of the documents is quoted in full and seems to have just been signed by he as landlord and they as tenant. Not sure who witnessed them. It is said the instruments were drawn up by a solicitor but that was disputed. He was a minor at the time, visiting the estate on his own as he did not live there. It doesn't actually say he was off his head on drink but I don't think he was ever sober. In court his council said he hoped he would not have to 'horrify the ears of the jury" by detailing "what peculiar acts.. were employed to strip him of his senses" so we can but imagine. He executed about 20 leases and in many cases was paid a "fine" described as an inducement. William remembers some money being put in his hand but by whom and how much he was unable to recall. The Uncle on eventually learning of this managed to persuade the majority to give back the leases. Taking them at their word, as William could not remember, he paid back several hundred pounds in fines/inducements they claimed to have made. There were few hold outs that went to court and later to appeal. Most of the argument was that he was a minor when the agreement was made but accepted some rent after he had reached the age of majority - think it is now case law.

On Jane, yes I hope you are right about her motivation. It is just that anecdotally Catholics were the ones having lots of children and Protestants traditionally had smaller families (I base this off no factual evidence whatsoever). Are we saying Protestants didn't like sex? or is it likely they were better at avoiding the consequences? I am certain she gave birth to 7 living children - 5 girls and 2 boys but only the girls survived infancy. Perhaps she was just the true Irish Mammy wanting a son. I am not sure if there were any more between her seventh and last who died with her in childbirth. She was 33.

Deja Boo

Julian Fellowes would love this!

pinkypinky

Everyone had much larger families in the past. Religion didn't come into it. There was no reliable contraception.

Joe1919

I remember doing an essay once on the 'poor law report 1834' There was a sort of underclass that were neither tenants or church members that suffered great poverty in Ireland. There was no local government as such and any kind of relief was either from the landlord or the church. Infanticide was common but interestingly often/usually not prosecuted. Poverty was a problem with what the report called 'bastardy.'

The churches/parishes were not that well off in the early century nor were people very religious. It was after the famine that the churches became better off. There is a good article by Emmet Larkin who wrote about 'The Devotional Revolution in Ireland, 1850-75'. He argues that a sort of religious fever hit Ireland during this time.(also note Apparition in Knock 1879, papal infallibility 1870)

Also its worth mentioning that alcoholism was also a source of poverty (as in my own family)  (Pioneer Total Abstinence Association founded 1898)

Its worth noting that some Catholics were also well off and influential e.g William Martin Murphy.

I would imagine that what was acceptable behavior/social mores depended very much on where you stood in the class/social system. I think it was often acceptable, for example, for a well off man to keep a mistress, perhaps because he could afford it.

Mick Tator

Agree with @pinkypinky above. There was a slight bias to larger families in rural areas, often suggested to be the result of healthier living conditions and food.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123893722#Comment_123893722

I disagree with some of that. I've done considerable research on two large estates in the SW (1750 - 1922) and the RC Church was very strong there and the people were religious. Yes, there was in increase in religious fervour post-Famine, but it was across the board - the rise of the Plymouth Brethren, Darby in Co. Wicklow and even riots about proselytism in Dingle! You also have to factor in Catholic Emancipation was 1929, the people were still broke/v.poor, then the Famine and it was emigrant savings sent 'home' that largely contributed to building churches post 1850. There always were wealthy RC classes, merchants and 'strong farmers' who provided material for the priesthood. the merchants in particular profited from the Encumbered estates courts. Wm M Murphy was from a comfortable background, his father was a successful merchant and builder. I agree that alcohol was a huge problem in Ireland, every travel writer in the 18 & 19th centuries comments on it. Some would say it still is.

KildareFan

Interesting!

It would be worth searching the Registry of Deeds Memorials to find marriage settlements & leases. Microfilms are online on the FamilySearch website - free but you need to set up an account.

The new FullText search & AI transcriptions have made searching so much easier. The rotten handwriting in some Memorials manages to defeat AI, so you need to use every variant you can think of.

FullText search for memorials & land records here https://www.familysearch.org/search/full-text/collection/M9J1-ZYL

Looking forward to the next installment!

Mick Tator

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123941217#Comment_123941217

@KildareFan Agreed on the Familysearch upload of the Reg of Deeds with the AI tool. It's not just a rabbit hole, it's a warren! I've had great success, finding various deeds of release and confirming familial links. (Eldest son of, relict of, grandchild, etc.) From just one deed I could write a detailed monograph on one kinsman and his land and descent! I already had some R of Deeds info from Nick Reddan's site, but the AI is a great asset, even if it sometimes is very wrong. I wonder what will happen to NR's project now……….

Janey Mack

Sorry for the delay in getting back on this I had a response drafted but hadn't saved it. Thanks @pinkypinky, @Mick Tator and @Joe1919 for providing context. I had coincidentally gone off on an "infanticide" tangent by way of an adjacent newspaper article. Also some quick (non scientific research) on the crime of "Procuring a Miscarriage" which mostly only seemed to lead to prosecution when the mother had died. I couldn't find any Irish prosecutions in the 30 yrs following it's introduction (1861) - I'll look closer another day. Not sure if there was another law used before that or if it went overnight from not being a crime to an offence that carried the death penalty.

Thanks for the steer on the Marriage Settlement - as it turns out there was a good bit of detail re Williams settlement in a Newspaper report on one of his court cases. I had assumed it was a will. His father was still alive when he married - at 17 - and this is how the estates came his way. Likely bride and groom were distantly related. I surmise that the father did not have good health and realising his eldest was a headbanger hoped that he would settle down once married. Also reported in that court case was that part of the disputed contract was that he would be provided with a life insurance policy for 10,000 pounds but he said it was useless as it only covered travel in Europe. It seemed like he never intended returning to Ireland. I think it was Burkes or Crossle that he was reported as "died without issue" by his uncle, when he was still alive and kicking, perhaps it was just wishful thinking.

@KildareFan - what have you done? I went down that fulltext search rabbit hole and thought this is great as on my first search the top result was said Marriage Settlement, but it was beginners luck and there is a mountain of stuff there. The AI is a bit hit and miss but great to have found it.

On Jane and the fulltext search, it has left me suspecting that her fortune may have quickly dissipated. There is a bank judgement against her for one. This was the real find though, Husband No 3 and herself were estranged - "Whereas unpleasant differences have for some time past subsisted between the parties hereto and in respect thereof proceedings have been pending in the Matrimonial Division of the High Court" brought by Jane - they instead signed a Memorandum of Understanding where he agreed to provide her with 30 shillings a week and a house in Dalkey. This was only 11 months after they had married so a very short lived romance. I had assumed it was his child she was carrying when she died but looks like I was wrong on that one.

KildareFan

Thanks Jany for the update.

Yes - the memorials are a rabbit warren & genealogical goldmine. I found a Memorial which documented a falling out between a mother & daughter who were managing a business in Nassau Street….

Indenture dated 24th Feb 1872 between Jane Lawrence 1 Nassau St Dublin widow of the one part; Sarah Jane Lawrence of the same place, spinster daughter of Jane Lawrence of the other part.; Jane Lawrence possesses the house and premises at 1 Nassau St… Sarah Jane had resided for some time at 1 & 2 Nassau St and had assisted Jane in the management of the business and in the internal details thereof and had given time and attention and had attained the age of 21 years … unhappy differences had lately arisen between Jane and Sarah Jane and they had mutually agreed to live separate and apart from each other … upon the treaty for the separation it was agreed that Jane would pay to Sarah Jane £26 per annum at 10/- per week until her death or marriage … In pursuance of the agreement and the covenants, Jane agreed to continue paying Sarah Jane the yearly rent charge of £26 at 10/- per week from the premises, the first payment to take place 7 days after the agreement signed

Would love to know more!