Circulating pump recall

Wearb

Heads up

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058426095/100-000-circulation-pumps-being-recalled

Markus Antonius

It says that the pump could be connected in reverse, which I assume means that live could be connected to neutral and the pump could work as normal albeit now making the earth live. I assume this would only make the earth wire 'live' between the pump and the ground plate? or could it potentially make other ground wires live in the household?

This is nuts. It's such a stupid mistake to make in the design. The mind boggles how it passed safety tests.

I do understand that the vast majority of installers will connect it the correct way BUT the DIY warriors could literally unplugg it & think they plugged it in correctly and put everyone at risk including any tradesman working on the system in the future.

I'm just stunned that this missed health & safety. Does that pump carry the CE mark?

Heads need to roll for this

User567363

Diy or expert is totally irrelevant on this one

I can imagine the connector getting pulled out accidentally while the homeowner is removing a shoebox of their important stuff (tat) stuffed under the tank

Then the homeowner innocently trys to reconnect the plug like you would the wire at the back of a radio, but they are down on their hunkers and nearly tip over

Finally they grab the pump metal body with one hand for balance and leverage and shove the cable in with the other, and they die through no fault of their own

monseiur

Surely it's possible to change the wiring set up and make the pump safe without having to change out the whole pump ? With winter on the doorstep this could be more that a little inconvenience for certain householders if isolation valves etc. are seized and the whole system has to be drained down, refilled, bled etc. etc.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123884183#Comment_123884183

Funny enough. They didn't think to make the connector that it only fits in the correct way BUT they were clever enough to include a clip so that the cord doesn't come out all on its own. You have to pull the clip to release the cable. The danger is after them being installed correctly (the instruction manual shows what end should be up or down) that homeowner /handyman etc removes the cable & puts it back upside down. That's not to suggest that some installers don't read the instructions.

The advice is that they are safe to use but not safe to touch.

CrazyEric

If the live pin can go into the earth pin then surely all that will happen is a bang and trip??

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123884234#Comment_123884234

No. The danger is nothing noticeable goes wrong. Pump still functions. The danger is that the pump itself could now be live.

The advice so far is continue to use them until the dedicated team replaces them free of charge. Then the scary part. Don't let anyone touch it. If you don't touch it then it's considered safe to use

CrazyEric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123884328#Comment_123884328

"Under advice for tradespeople, the CCPC said the mains cable can be connected to the pump in reverse, allowing the live pin to connect to the earth pin and posing a serious risk of electrocution."

I am reading that as the Live touches the earth, Unless there is no earth continuity to the pump through the piping (qualpex etc) then it goes bang. If there is no earthing path through the pipework then the body of the pump is live, the pump doesnt work, but here again a 30ma RCBO will take it out before it electrocutes someone…. in an ideal world.

Really a danger in older set ups with no RCBO protection but then they are less likely to be qualpex. Still a major Fluff up by the company.

rob w

I don't think the pump would still function. If live and earth are reversed, then the motor winding is connected across neutral and earth instead of neutral and live - so it wouldn't work. I think what they are saying is that it will still function, if it's connected the right way around, if so do t touch it and just needs to be replaced.

In most cases they are probably connected up properly and working away....until someone plugs out the connectors and puts them back in the wrong way around.

Then starts to wonder why it's not working and goes investigating and ends up getting a shock, possibly from a non-rcd protected circuit.

This is probably what has happened somewhere and hence why the HSA are involved, and now the product recall occuring.

But yeah, with a live to earth short it should be a bang and a trip. But in this case there might not be a short.

The earth that was connected to the frame of the pump is no longer there in the case that the connection is reversed. So the live is on the pump frame alone.

Where there is another path to earth through metallic pipes connected to the pump (via earthed cylinder, boiler etc), then there might be path to earth, so a bang and a trip. But, if the pipes connected to the pump are not metallic (i.e. qualpex) then the frame could just be sitting there live and won't trip.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123884389#Comment_123884389

The pumps are running normally when connected upside down but the pump can be live is what it is reported this evening. The advice is to continue to use them but not to touch them. Not very reassuring at all

tnegun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123884328#Comment_123884328

If the pump still runs it's worse than that right? The live feed must now flow through the earth circuit to get back to the live terminal on the pump, potentially making any earthed appliance or pipework live.

Lenar3556

It doesn’t run when incorrectly connected.

The risk when incorrectly connected is the pump body may become live if there isn’t an alternative earth path provided by metallic pipework.

rob w

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123884389#Comment_123884389

Heating circuit like this are not required to be and are unlikely in most cases to have RCD or RCBO protection

tnegun

Is it not that it may not run and that the body is now live? The previous poster said they did run so thinking it out the only way that could happen was if the live supply had a circuit back to the live pin on the pump via the earth circuit right? Live on pump cable → earth on pump → earthing circuit → earth on the pump cable → live feed on the pump, and the pump runs masking that anything is wrong until someone is shocked.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123884435#Comment_123884435

What’s the risk?

Patrick Kenny, a member of the CCPC, told RTÉ Radio One: ”[The faulty pump] is not dangerous as it sits there. It’s only dangerous when you put back in the electricity connect.

“The risk involved is ultimately electrocution because if you think about your three-point plug at home, you’re plugging in your kettle or your hairdryer, it’s impossible to put it in sideways or upside down. This should be designed in the same way.

“Unfortunately this, only with minimum force, can be inverted and then immediately the live touches the wrong thing and it becomes live and a danger.”

What should you do?

Once you’ve established that you have a faulty pump, do not interfere with it.

While households can continue to use their heating systems as normal, they should not handle affected pumps.

Do not disconnect, adjust or attempt any maintenance on the pump.

Contact Tucson and they will have a trained installer come out and replace it with a safe pump.

The service and new pump will be provided free of charge.

The safety alert came following an investigation CCPC product safety officers launched an investigation into the pumps following a referral from the Health and Safety Authority (HSA).

As a result of the CCPC investigation, manufacturer Tucson Pumps is rolling out a major replacement programme. Consumers can have the pump replaced for free by an approved, qualified Tucson technician or service agent.

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123884453#Comment_123884453

They are required to for many years now, but some older installations might not have RCD protection.

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123884461#Comment_123884461

The risk is electric shock if the plug is fitted upside down.

User567363

It would be a big job to replace 100,000 and there will be issues in lots of house after, Could a team with 100,000 little bottles of superglue just yoink the plug, lather it in glue and drive it home permanently

Wearb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123884735#Comment_123884735

Exact same thing occurred to me. I suppose their insurers wouldn't stand over such a bodge however practical it was.

Cerco

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123883151#Comment_123883151

I think your remark about "DIY warriors " is unwarranted in this instance.

The forum is meant to inform DIY in the home.

The risk of electric shock will apply to anybody who inadvertently reverses the plug(socket).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123885975#Comment_123885975

A installer has the fitting instructions to tell him how to fit it. The DIY chap doesn't usually have this at hand. The real fear was for the DIY chap rather than the trained installer who fits these on a regular basis

It's worth pointing out it has to be forced to go in upside down. The correct way & it slides home. Wrong way around and you need to jiggle & force it. We all had a go yesterday at the trade counter when the story broke

This model has been installed for the last 8 years without any reported issues. The warning is very important because there is risk due to a lazy design

Cerco

As I understand :the issue:

1. The pump body must be electrically isolated from the pipework otherwise rads etc would become live when the connector is inserted the wrong way. So the earth connector on the pump hosing is intended to provide protection for the hosing.

2. When the connector is inserted incorrectly then the live pin connects to the housing earth so only the pump housing is live. This action alone will not cause a fuse to blow or RCD /RCBO to trip.

3. The danger is when someone or something comes in contact with the pump.

Do you agree?

Bruthal.

Presumably in this 3 pin connection setup, the earth is at one end and phase at the other, N in middle.

If that is the case, it's an astonishing design in terms of stupidity.

Bruthal.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123886060#Comment_123886060

The RCD probably wouldnt trip if the pump body is isolated. It should if someone came in contact with a live metal part on the pump and the +30ma shock is reveived.

But this type of shock is usualy only if the person is also in contact with earthed metalwork close by as well.

All it takes is 2 inches of qualpex replacing copper to make pipe earthing useless. This means that (I'm guessing) that radiators could become live in continuous copper is used but there is qualpex fitted anywhere between the bonding & and pump.

There has been absolutely no deaths or injuries reported by this pump. It's also not as easy to insert the cable in the wrong way. Tried one yesterday in the suppliers. Insert it correctly and it slides home effortlessly and the clip engages stopping it to fall out or be pulled out. Fitting it incorrectly takes a tiny bit of effort. A little jiggling and a bit reasonable bit of pushing /shoving to get it in the wrong way. This might explain how it's been widely used for 8 years before the alarm was raised.

The above information doesn't suggest that it isn't or can't be dangerous.

There can't be too many plumbers that haven't fitted these. You will notice a difference between the correct way & and the incorrect way

Cerco

I suspect from the previous post and others that there were no actual instances of the connector reversal.

IMHO it is more likely someone identified the danger of reversing the connector and reported it to an Authority or Manufacturer.

Because of the severity of the potential risk to life there was an immediate alert and recall.

SC024

Even if there is Qualpex between the pump & boiler or cylinder (which there shouldn't be) Wouldnt the water in the system provide a path for sufficient fault current in order to trip Rcbo/Rcd wether it be back to the boiler or cylinder which would also both be earthed?

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123905869#Comment_123905869

Water isn’t very conductive (although it varies depending on what is dissolved in it)

In the scenario you describe it would be very unlikely that the water would provide anything near a sufficient leakage path to earth to reach the 30mA leakage threshold to trip an RCD. An in may cases an RCD or RCBO may not be fitted. It has only become a requirement in the last 15 or 20 years approx (I can’t remember exactly when it came in)

Water might sufficiently bridge a small section of plastic pipe, but not several metres.

Incidentally it is permissible to have qualpex or other plastic pipe work between the pump and boiler or cylinder, and the scenario commonly arises.

SC024

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123906981#Comment_123906981

Ah I see, Thought water was more conductive than that. Your not supposed to use pex within 1 metre of any heat producing appliance & normally pumps are either right beside boiler or right beside cylinder in majority of cases anyway