Does this statement from the council set off anyone else's bullshit detector?

WildeWest

There are a couple of junctions in Swords that have pedestrian crossings and also a left-turn sliplane for motorised traffic. One is where the Murrough and Glen Ellan roads cross the R125/Rathbeale road when coming from the Ashbourne direction. Another is where the Glen Ellan road meets the Balheary road outside Swords Business Campus when coming from the direction of the village.

I've noticed that the button to cross the sliplane at both locations doesn't activate any of the other crossings. It treats the sliplane as a separate and distinct destination, despite that no user would treat it as such. I have been bothering Fingal Council about this on and off for a couple of years now, when I both remember and have the energy, asking that they improve the user experience. However, nothing has changed.

Recently, I received the following response from an officer at the council:

Our engineer has come back to me on this one as the sites only recently had an inspection and were found to be in working order.

He has advised that the design of the crossing is designed this way that once you reach the traffic island there is another button to be pressed.

This is designed as within the public we have many people of multiple different levels of mobility and this allows them to move at there desired speed.

This doesn't ring true to me, rather it's an excuse to keep motorised traffic moving. If you really wanted to assist people with different levels of mobility, you'd lengthen the timing for them to cross, not interrupt their crossing in this manner.

Does anyone else read it this way or am I being overly sensitive?

hesker

It’s designed to keep traffic moving. Basically they reason that people of reduced mobility would hold traffic up for too long and so crossing should be broken up.

Even if they won’t admit that.

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123614407#Comment_123614407

Which might be ok if the pedestrian lights in this country actually worked as an aid to pedestrians rather than a placebo effect button designed to keep them in check. 90% of the buttons seem to have almost no effect, meaning that they're pushed and after a while pedestrians just wait for a gap in the traffic and then cross themselves. After which the lights will change and cars will stop to look at an empty crossing.

Take greystones main street as an example - a very narrow, very busy street, with a lot of car and pedestrian traffic. The light at one end of the street (Supervalu) works very well meaning that pedestrians generally just wait until it turns green for them before crossing. There's very little delay between pressing the button and lights changing. And the lights are a pretty short (but fair) sequence (including the flashing amber for both users). It just works. The lights outside the train station at the bottom of the street are much less efficient and are generally ignored by a lot of pedestrians.

There's no real reason other than apathy as to why proper pedestrian lights couldn't be operated in 90% of locations. Even things like a countdown timer. But basically zero f***s have ever been given here.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058419014/does-this-statement-from-the-council-set-off-anyone-elses-bullshit-detector

I'm firmly with the council here I'm afraid. The whole idea is to allow crossing in conjunction with a green light for parallel traffic as it won't be turning left across you.

Doing what you suggest would actually leave you waiting longer to cross as the light sequences would have to be longer.

fat bloke

Drives me mad to see pedestrians stranded on islands in the middle of roads. A crossing should be a crossing. End of. Who the fcuk wants anything else.

It's like these new cycle lanes being built all around us where straight ahead priority is removed and at every junction you have to beg for permission to proceed.

Sops to cars is all they are.

Buffman

That's exactly the way it's supposed to work and every junction in the country that has lanes separated by pedestrian islands operate separately like that.

It treats the sliplane as a separate and distinct destination, despite that no user would treat it as such

I'd have to disagree with that and say that to most people it's abundantly obvious that they are separate crossings as they all have their own sets of pedestrian lights and buttons.

rather it's an excuse to keep motorised traffic moving.

It's exactly that, with the exception of pedestrian only traffic lights, at traffic light junctions all traffic is generally treated equally for priority in the sequence, when a pedestrian pushes the button they become part of the timing cycle and have to wait thier turn. How long you wait depends on when in that cycle the button was pushed.

You might be better off asking the council to install more pedestrian crossings where required, as at those pedestrian do have priority over traffic.

Big Bag of Chips

Any pedestrian crossing separated by an island, even a straight across the road one, each side is treated as a separate crossing.

So yes, a junction with multiple lanes, slip roads etc will be treated as individual crossings.

ARX

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123614963#Comment_123614963

We all know the cliche about Germans never crossing the street against a red light, but it's a hell of a lot easier to cross the street in Germany than it is here. Pedestrian crossings have short wait times and you don't see the situations that you do here where it's impossible for any traffic to (legally) proceed through the crossing and still the pedestrian crossing is red.

magicbastarder

i think i might have the correct junction; do you mean the red and blue crossings each require a button press?

if so, i can see a little logic in that, as when pressing the button to start the red crossing, it's not going to be clear which road the pedestrian actually intends to cross - whether the yellow or blue path will be taken. perhaps the red crossing could be replaced by a pedestrian crossing; as it is, it's forcing pedestrians who would be continuing straight on the main carriageway to yield to turning traffic. it might be an idea to give pedestrians priority for that red section.

i do agree that having to wait twice if there's only one path the pedestrian can take, is a poor design.

WildeWest

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123615220#Comment_123615220

I don't think that's the case here. I wish I could post a picture of the locations to illustrate, but I can't as a new user.

magicbastarder

near where i live, there's a wide road with a median strip, and one pedestrian crossing is treated with a single cycle (with a very long amber light which lasts longer than the green) but a couple of hundred metres away, the median is wider and it's broken up into two crossings. i assume it's because the width of the median is too narrow on the first crossing to allow pedestrians to dwell.

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123615422#Comment_123615422

100%

I don't have an issue with islands having separate light sequences. It would actually work better that way for elderly or infirm pedestrians who may be a lot slower… they're not under pressure to make the whole crossing before the lights change. It should simply be a case of the wait times being short and the crossing times (which flashing amber to allow cars proceed once clear) appropriate. There's just no consideration whatsoever given to most of ours, and there's no logic to having an inconsistent system. As a pedestrian it just means you approach a crossing with no idea as to what way the lights/ button will work. I don't even bother pressing them most of the time in the city centre as it seems the pedestrian lights simply come on when the traffic sequence allows it - nothing to do with the pressing of the button.

WildeWest

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123615424#Comment_123615424

Yes, that's one of the crossings that I described earlier.

For the other four crossings, it doesn't matter which of the buttons that you press, all four crossings activate as part of the same cycle. If none of the buttons at those arms are pressed in time, the pedestrian cycle is skipped.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123615424#Comment_123615424

Great to have a pic to help explain the logic.

The blue crossing will be green while the traffic light in the pic is green, and the yellow crossing will be green when the same light is red (but green for the cars in the pic going straight).

So red and yellow may be green simultaneously, but not red and blue, hence the separate buttons.

magicbastarder

Mod note - as this is not a cycling topic, I've moved it to the infrastructure forum. Please note that a new forum charter may apply.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123615422#Comment_123615422

If you go to Paris, Barcelona or many other European cities, there is no need to press buttons because the majority of pedestrian lights are automated to routinely switch regardless of the presence of either pedestrians or cars.

riddlinrussell

The solution to help pedestrian flow here is to remove the slip lane and let cars turn in the main lane, remove that set of lights entirely.

Cars are very comfortable and dry spaces, the people in them can stand to wait a little to improve pedestrian experience.

cantalach

Any chance the thread title could be edited to say “Fingal Council” so that people living in one of the other 30+ councils don’t waste time clicking into it?

WildeWest

That's not how it works. Pressing any of the eight buttons around the four main in arms in time for the pedestrian cycle (you can miss it and have to wait), activates all four main crossings. My question is why pressing the button to the left of the red arrow only activates the slip lane crossing and requires a second button and wait to complete the crossing.

However, my original question is whether the council's statement still stands. Are mobility-challenged people happy to hang around traffic islands? Are there any standards, documentation or guidance for councils that advises this approach?

And apologies for the thread title. Even though this specific example concerns Fingal, it affects other places in Ireland I imagine.

Sam Russell

I think that the junction of Ailesbury Road and Merrion Road is a good example of this.

Travelling from Sydney Parade station, there is a left slip lane with its own pedestrian light, while the rest of the junction is controlled by a single pedestrian sequence where the rest of the junction is set to red.

Now the problem is that the slip road has a separate time, and responds to the pedestrian. Unfortunately, cars do not notice the red light that only corresponds to a left turn and continue regardless. The solution is to unite all pedestrian lights.

A further modification is to have pedestrian lights sequence between each change, so N/S follewed by Ped followed by E/W lights followed by Ped and repeat.

Also, for stand alone pedestrian crossings should respond to a pedestrian pressing the button quickly/immediately but not repeat activation for a short period. This encourages pedestrians to wait for a green light, as light will change in a short while.

During Covid, light sequences were changed to favour pedestrians and may have been changed back.