What's the best upgrade for my situation?

tomaschonnie

Hi all, 

We’re looking for some advice on what to do with our heating system.

2-bed mid-terrace house built 2004. North county Dublin.

• Gas boiler ideal logic S18IE
• There’s a factory insulated hot water tank. Seems in good shape but I’m no expert. There’s no immersion.
• Rads in each room.
• There’s no thermostat anywhere.
• There’s a Climote Remote Heating Controller near the gas boiler; it was there when we bought the house, but it’s a subscription service and we don’t want to commit to subscribing to any specific service before we figure out the best thing to do. We can still physically push the buttons on the climote control panel to turn the gas boiler on and off.
• One thing that’s really odd. The gas boiler is just on/off. If you want hot water and hot radiators there is a physical lever behind the hot water tank in the hot press that you have to switch position. I literally have to climb into the hot press; it’s really awkward. Just after we bought the house and realised the way the system is set up, I asked the estate agent and he said “when winter comes just move the lever so you will have hot water and space heating. When spring comes, switch the lever again to turn off space heating”. Not ideal.
  

BER is C1: recently upgraded  from C3 with dry lining insulation and new windows and front door. According to the new BER report we consume 169.27 kWh/m2/yr. If I want a B3 rating then I need to get below 150 kWh/m2/yr. That’s about 20 kWh/m2/yr that I need at the very least. According to the advisory report, the recommended upgrades are:

1. Space and water heating controls upgrade including time and temperature zone control
2. Solar Photovoltaic (PV) electricity System 2kWp. However, I’ve been told by solar companies that we don’t have enough roofspace for solar pv.
   

So, the only choice is heating controls upgrade, I guess. (And a new BER)

We have a few grand left over that we would spend if it improved the heating system and brought us up to a B3. The SEAI grant is Heating Controls upgrade is €700. If I upgrade my heating controls will that amount to a saving of 20 kWh/m2/yr that I need? What would you do?

Calahonda52

Why do you need a B3?

how much insulation in the attic?

splitting it into 3 zones is a lot of disruptive work

https://www.seai.ie/sites/default/files/publications/Homeowners-Guide-To-Heating-Controls.pdf

tomaschonnie

There's lots of attic insulation. I did it myself. If Luke a B3 because of green mortgage rates. But mostly what I want is a better functioning system. If I can get both at the same time, great.

Lenar3556

Basic heating controls are generally a worthwhile investment.

From your description there is already pipe work segregation for hot water and at least one space heating zone. The hot press lever you refer could be replaced with a motorised zone valve to automate it.

If the upstairs is piped separately and thus can be zoned separately, great. If not I would suggest simply balancing the 1st floor radiators so that their output is reduced to 40% and reassess the situation at that point. Typically space heating requirement for upstairs are significantly less than downstairs.

Find a suitable point for a thermostat downstairs and get a programmable one, that allows you to set different temps at different times of the day. Heatmiser Neo or similar.

On the €700 grant, these grant schemes tend to add cost because of criteria like BER assessments and administration, so are often not worthwhile. But given that you already have a pre works BER carried out and you may achieve the added benefit of an improved mortgage rate for documented B3 it’s likely worth a shot. Just check with the BER provider that it will meet B3 standard before you do the work. As far as I remember, a two zone system meets the grant criteria.

tomaschonnie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123445800#Comment_123445800

That's really helpful. thanks!

Calahonda52

He already has a 2 zone system. The dwelling report should tell what the assessor put in.

https://www.seai.ie/sites/default/files/publications/Homeowners-Guide-To-Heating-Controls.pdf

OP, as suggested get in touch with the last assessor and ask him to run the numbers for you.

Have you an immersion element in the cylinder with stat?

Escapees

This country seems to lag so far behind when it comes to heating controls, even houses built 20 years ago! From experience, I would strongly recommend considering using a timer based heating controller and installing TRVs on all the radiators if that's an option. I have never come across a home where a thermostat in just one particular location has worked effectively - they're often located in hallways which tend to be draughty and colder than other rooms, which then leads to those rooms overheating. Using TRVs maximises efficiency in my view, as the temperature of each room is individually controlled, without any guesswork. There are now wireless TRVs as well which allow full independent control of every radiator and room temperature.

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123446251#Comment_123446251

I very much agree with the underlying sentiment here but would posit that TRVs are perhaps not the best idea as they are located down low, behind curtains etc in many cases.

My go to for a serious upgrade is wall stat wired to a mini-valve per room

The other problem with the single stat per zone, in hall or landing is that the whole floor is on off, was a big issue during the WFH boom, with one person at home say in the box room, whole floor heated.

In passing was doing a non grant BER recently and they had the two stats:

I asked how they worked: "They don't, just put up for the heating control grant"

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123446251#Comment_123446251

So the likes of neo stat has time and temperature controls. The placement is important and on a ground floor I would suggest installing the the main habitable room. A main bedroom can be good on the 1st floor.

I am not fan of traditional TRV’s. The concept of taking a room temperature right beside a radiator is flawed and I haven’t seen them provide any way effective control. Building regulations don’t accept them as a means of temperature control either.

The digital ones have software which aim to counteract this limitation and I have no doubt it is a big improvement - but they need battery replacements and the initial install costs have to be considered.

If I was building a new house, I might put a digital wired room stat in every room and use actuators on a manifold to manage each room separately.

But in an existing house, you can achieve good results with an appropriately placed room stat on each floor. The secret is to then spend time balancing the output of the radiators/underfloor to provide correct heat in each room.

tomaschonnie

There no immersion though I can see a spot on the tank where it could be inserted

Sleeper12

I split my own into 3 zones a few years ago. (there might be a small grant for this).

I love my toys so this year I changed all my rads & hot water cylinder to Smart TRVs and a Ember EPH 16 zone controller. Because everything has its own zone via smart controller there is no need to have 3 zones on the pipework. I think this is a better option. Each trv can have its own timer, several times a day. Each Trv can have its own set temperature

TheSunIsShining

Some of the systems, Tado for example, allow you to connect a wireless thermostat to be the temperature reader for the TRV so you can get a more accurate measure of the room temperature. But the costs can add up fairly fast. Think there are other cheaper options as well which allow the same thing.

tomaschonnie

Thanks for all your comments and suggestions. I learned a lot from what you wrote (though some of it went over my head at first), as well as from reading the SEAI doc. I’ve made a list of what I learned, as well as new questions to explore. Any further help is greatly appreciated.

• Need two zones. As a minimum, your heating systems should be split into two independently controlled zones. They are your ‘Space Heating Zone’ and your ‘Domestic Hot Water Zone’
• Find out if upstairs piped separately. If not, just balance radiators upstairs to reduce output by about 40%
• The hot press lever could be replaced with a motorised zone valve to automate it.
• Place thermostats upstairs and downstairs e.g. Heatmiser Neo. How many? OR TRVs? Wireless ones that connect via router to programmable timer?
• I need a programmable timer. What type exactly?
• Thermostat needed on the hot water tank? Unless there is one already there that I can’t identify?
• Replace rads or replace the opening/closing valves
• Confirm with BER assessor if upgrades to heating system would reach B3

Sleeper12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123469612#Comment_123469612

That information is out of date. There is no longer any need for separate plumbing heating zones.

An Ember EPH 16 zone programer with EPH smart TRVs on all rads and cylinder will give you a separate zone for each rad and cylinder. This is far more economical than a 2 or 3 zone system. It gives you the option of full control on you phone from anywhere in the world

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123501075#Comment_123501075

It’s not out of date. No new installation will be constructed such that it demands on WiFi TRav heads.

That’s not to knock it entirely. It has a place and in a pinch you could do as you propose. There are several manufacturers in that space, not just EPH.

But you are adding a lot of complexity and wireless controls which need to be maintained. The smart TRV’s are taking a temp right beside the radiator which isn’t ideal. Also boilers and circulation pumps haven’t been sized to operate single radiators.

My own view is that those systems should be avoided in normal circumstances. I don’t see there being a material efficiency benefit over what can be achieved with more traditional zoning and effective balancing.