Hurling Reform

randd1

Do we need reform? I think so, and badly, both on the field and off the field. The sport needs cleaning up. I'm interested in seeing people's overall opinion on the matter. Personally I'd like to see;

On the field

• Ban the throw. A change to the hand-pass rule, where the hand that releases the ball cannot strike the ball immediately after release. It removes the throw as is, but seeing as 70/80% of hand-passes are now illegal throws, I think it's a must. Football is also benefitting greatly in moving away somewhat from the possession based game, hurling badly needs to do the same, and taking away the ability to throw your way out of trouble or get scores via series of throws that avoid a contest for the ball cheapens the sport, take away the throw and adds in a bit of chaos to sport and moves away from the excel sheet style systems we're seeing. Allow the dropping of the hurl to facilitate hand switching.
• Regulate the size of the bás and strictly enforce it. Lads playing with banjo's is a joke. The bás is effectively round, it wouldn't be that hard to rig up a device of regulation width/depth and of the hurl doesn't pass through it, it can't be used. And a one match ban for anyone found using an illegal hurl.
• 30 yard penalty for dissent.
• Use the new football arc. A deliberate pull down adjudged by the referee in the arc outside the 21 to prevent a goal-scoring opportunity from developing is a penalty with three people on the goal-line. Inside the 21 is a standard penalty.
• No substitutions after 35 and 70 minutes, as these substitutions are used for time-wasting, and it's utterly pointless in giving a lad a run for 30 seconds. Either use a sub properly or don't use them at all.
• Two designated players, one in defence, one in attack, can only speak to referees.
• Advantage rule to change to add cumulative advantages, as in if already on an advantage and another foul occurs but the opportunity to score is still there, allow the most recent advantage, and if nothing comes to fruition within 15 seconds, bring it back to the point of the most recent foul.
• Two referee's. It's probably well needed by now.
• All head high tackles in which the injured player has not dipped his head in a charging manner is to be an automatic red and a two match ban, with a warning that a similar offence within 18 months will carry a 4 match ban.
• 3 card punishment system. Yellow card for warning. Blue card for 8 minute sin-bin. Red card for sending off (a yellow card after a blue card). Blue card offences include four personal fouls (three personal fouls gets you a yellow), excessive handbags, persistent abuse of an official, deliberate pull down preventing a goal-scoring opportunity, pulling off an opponents helmet, minor striking offences. All red cards to be a one match ban. Refs might be more inclined to dish out yellow cards and enforce the rules better if they knew the next punishment was an 8 minute sin bin and not sending off a player for an innocuous yellow. getting sent off after a sin-bin, that's completely on the player.
• The steps rule to be expanded to 6 steps, but enforced with absolute zeal with a zero leeway policy.

Off the field

• Prior to a league final, the start of the championship, with two rounds left to go in the provincial championships, the Munster/Leinster finals, the AIQF's, the AISF's and AI final, all teams must hold a press conference from promotional purposes, with the manager and at least one player, where questions are put to them from the media.
• Social media to be flooded by the GAA with clips of the 7 best goals/7 best saves/7 best tackles/10 best points from the previous weekends action.
• The GAA need to be less acquiescent to the views of the Sunday Game and more in tune with what's needed for the sport of hurling. Most hurling fans are exactly that, fans, and fans like entertainment. And while entertainment is vital, it should never be confused with integrity and quality, and the GAA should be able to know the difference and not assuming everything is perfect because the nodding bobbleheads on the Sunday Game are wound up in excitement after a half decent game.

Asdfgh2020

Is everything fine as it is?

you forgot to mention the creation of a ‘hurling only’ body that disassociates itself from the broader GAA family🤣

King Power Fox

Big one for me is the steps rule - you have to give defenders some chance to get a flick or a block. A few of DJs vintage goals had 9-10 steps!

joebloggs32

Does hurling need a football style rule reform?

We definitely need a discussion on it.

Throwing the ball has become a cancer. Steps has also gone beyond a joke as teams are carrying the ball a lot more nowadays. This also is the cause of a lot of the questionable tackling as defenders no longer can flick away a ball as a lad just bursts trough like a rugby centre.

I would like to see frees permited ftom the hand in your own half of the field (but indirect) as many teams will deliberately foul to stop a counter attack. Like in football then, any attempt to slow the quick free from the hand would be severely punished.

me89

I agree with the off field, nothing is done to promote the game. Players and managers not speaking to the media before big games is ridiculous, it only happens in the GAA.

eastie17

been saying this for a while, I dunno why hurling has been getting a free ride for so long as if it’s perfect.

The gas one was the black card only in football, because of course a hurler would never engage in cynical play

WesternZulu

Does hurling need a football style rule reform?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123236413#Comment_123236413

The two sports are very different in their outlook of themselves.

The hurling man is often too quick to pat himself on the back. You’ll never near him say it was a bad game of hurling and would sneer at anyone who contested that it’s the best game in the world.

Football is the polar opposite. The football man is often too slow to acknowledge anything positive about a game without first picking out the negatives. The football man obviously prefers the sport but he’ll never say as such in GAA circles as the unspoken rule is that there is only one objectively best sport in the world.

In all seriousness hurling needs reform. Fans go on about it’s such a high scoring game but with the design of hurls right now and modern lighter sliothars I don’t think there is anything inherently skillful about scores commonly coming from midfield. It’s just too easy to pop the ball over the bar.

I says

Throwball and possession will only change if hurling goes back to more ground hurling which is going back to using longer hurls. Most young fellas are now using hurls 3 to 4 inches shorter than 20 yrs ago so ground game is gone.

Cynical fouling has crept into the game and players are getting away with it. The arm around the neck/shoulder area is deemed ok now by refs in the quest to let the game flow. The charge by a player with a ball in hand is allowed which leads to the body check by a defender usually results in a free, or depending on the ref overcarrying by the attacker.
It’s all about the scores now like basketball every 30 seconds only short of introducing a shot clock. What happened to enjoying a 1-11 to 10 score line with plenty of ground hurling, flick ins and breaking ball.
Until the handpass scutter is dealt with hurling is going to end up as boring as football. A short puckout 3 or 4 hand passes and a point then rinse and repeat.

threeball

Indirect frees for technical fouls. Its far to easy to give away a free for a simple over carry or dodgy looking handpass which practically gives a score to the opposition. Refs are therefore reluctant to blow them in case they get it wrong. If it was indirect I think it would be pulled up more often as the punishment is less. And the ball needs more time in play. Some games can be glorified freetaking competitions. 65's should be indirect too

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123236498#Comment_123236498

Cynical fouling is as old as sport. It has just changed a little.

Some fat auld full back being sent out to "bust" some hotshot young fella is cynical. Taking the man out because you know you can't beat him to the lose ball has being going on forever too.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123236413#Comment_123236413

Seen a few articles recently from football pundits which just amounts to bitterness that their game needed radical fixing and hurling didn't.

Hurling needs rules like steps, handpass and charging with the ball applied properly. It doesn't need the game rewritten.

challengerbell

Does hurling need a football style rule reform?

• For intercounty at least, give linesmen and the 4th official more power. If they see a throw they can call it, if they see steps, the same. The referee can override them if they think the saw it differently but still give them more power to call it. The ref still has final say.

Then:

• Punish steps.
• Punish throwball.
• Punish spare arm tackle/clothesline tackle.
• Punish dropping the hurley.

But:

• Make fouls indirect frees instead of direct frees for fouling the ball, direct frees for fouling the man. This may also reduce the pressure on refs calling throws/steps as the punishment reverts to a change in possession rather than a score for the opposition. There would also now be 4 people with the ability to call a throw emboldening them more to actually do it.

Also:

• Introduce a simple slot to check bas size before all games - start at intercounty and slowly roll out down divisions and age groups to minimise financial costs and waste.
• Referee the puckouts having to be hit from inside the small rectangle - lines man can watch this for every puckout.
• Move 65s to half way line or the other 65.

These changes dont actually change the rules much at all. Only awarding more power to the other officials and changing some frees to indirect and moving the 65. The rest of the rules already exist and it would just be a resetting of the implementation of the current rules.

Montys return

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123236484#Comment_123236484

Don't agree, there was a huge backlash to sweepers in Hurling as a blight on the game.

To say there isn't anything inherently skillful about scores coming from midfield is absolutely daft and ignorant really, but I would agree with you that it being commonplace isn't great for the spectacle.

Treble double

Can some hurling people tell me if there is regulations in place on the size of the bas and the size of the ridges on the Sliothar. Are they enforced and what's the penalty. I watched a game from the nineties recently and they hurleys looked completely different and the ridges appeared bigger on the sliothar in that if contact was made with the ridge when striking it would go no distance. Hitting a 65 was a big thing back then, now alot of 14 years old can do it. The change in equipment has caused the biggest change in hurling it appears but are these changes within regulation?

Montys return

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123238008#Comment_123238008

It's multi faceted to be fair. The volume and quantity of training inter County players do from a younger age now is world's apart from the 90s, that includes both skills and development as well as strength and conditioning. The scientific approach is bound to have had quite a big impact on the distances players can score from a long with changes to the ball or hurleys.

The sliotars are regulated and the biggest change is probably the consistent quality in use at all levels across the Country. I think it was James Skehill who weighed a sliotar from a couple of years ago vs when he started out about 20 years prior and there was effectively no difference despite all the talk of a "lighter sliotar".

On the hurleys, the bas is supposed to be no more than 17cm at its widest point. Not sure what it is in practice or what difference that makes to distances achieved in striking.

Treble double

I don't think there was ever an issue with weight of the ball, I suppose modern manufacturing would prevent it getting heavier when wet. It seems to be practically smooth now compared to substantial ridges in the 90s for example. This would have a massive impact on flight and precision striking, I wonder like the bas size is there regulation measurement for these ridges and is their any enforcement.

Montys return

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123240032#Comment_123240032

https://www.gaa.ie/my-gaa/getting-involved/sliotar

Think they would be enforced these days for Inter County matches. Hurleys definitely are not examined though, I'm not sure the extent of them flouting rules. Also questionable as to whether it significantly impacts distance, should make it easier to control or block the ball though.

Interesting article below and if the quote from Torpeys is accurate (why wouldn't it be) then big bas hurleys have been around a long time and can't be the primary driver for long range scoring.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0815/1069043-hurling-bas/

crusd

Does hurling need a football style rule reform?

For me the biggest thing that could be done for hurling is enforce the rule on hurl size. It has become too easy to score from distance. The importance of a goal has been too diluted.

Skill forwards players seem to still favour a smaller bas. However out the field is more akin to a spade with the large Sweet spot facilitating 90 yards flicks over the bar

DJ Carey vs Aaron Gillane

Whelehan vs Diarmuid Byrnes

Montys return

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123343645#Comment_123343645

Those photos tell us absolutely nothing. You need to compare real data on the measurements.

Larger bas sizes did not arrive with the Limerick hurling team of 2018 onwards so the idea that it is the main contributing factor to long distance scoring is highly questionable.

crusd

Does hurling need a football style rule reform?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123343947#Comment_123343947

I didn't say it did and included Gillane's photo as its not too different to Carey's. It does no one a service in sticking heads in the sand and pretending hurls are not now massively out of compliance with the rules. They may have been marginally so in the past but over the past 25 years has been as massive change, especially in players out the field.

Seanie McMahon vs David McInerney

Montys return

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123344051#Comment_123344051

The rules were changed though.

And Seanie McMahon is an interesting example, given he could score from 100 yards which wouldn't lend weight to the argument that bas size is an issue.

Presumably, both of them get their hurleys from Torpeys who gave some interesting insight into this discussion in the article I linked above your initial post.

I'm not trying to have a go here, all I'm saying is generally there's a lot of speculation about a single factor that's causing consistent long range scoring e.g. the sliotar, the hurley etc. I think there's more too it than that and without a detailed analysis of the factors at play we shouldn't rush to change the rules without having a fair idea as to how it would address any issues we perceive.

callaway92

Is everything fine as it is?

Increased Bas Sizes and Lighter Sliotars are the two biggest contributors.

Lads are flicking their wrists from their own 21 and hitting the far 21 if they want.

Not sure about testing of Bambu Compared to Ash hurleys at the same swing speed/technique but I think at underage now, 90% of hurleys that Torpeys sell anyway are Bambu. Obviously the weight of the Hurley is a contributor too if the person has the strength to hit it at a fast speed. Again with Torpey you can have light, medium or heavy I think. If you can hit heavy at a fast speed it’ll obviously hit the ball further (akin to golf using a stiff shaft)

The nonsense of ‘ah the lads these days with their S&C’ is painful. It’s nothing to do with S&C

crusd

Does hurling need a football style rule reform?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123344152#Comment_123344152

Seanie McMahon was the exception that proved the rule. When You had only one or two players scorinbg from that range it demonstrated the ability to do that was exceptional. Now its multiple layers in every team and it tracks to bas size.

And the decision to change the regulation is the message "if enough of us break the rules they will change the rules".

1-34 to 0-35 is not more entertaining to 4-15 to 3-16

Montys return

Correlation does not equal causation.

Since Sean McMahons time, the level of training, conditioning and preparation inter County hurlers undergo from their early teens is unrecognizable.

You say bas size is the underlying issue, yet clearly players could score from distance with those bas sizes as McMahon proved. So if there is a general difference in the standard you shouldn't automatically point to bas size and rule out other factors that have changed since his time.

There's an attitude in the GAA to constantly tweak rules. We should be doing it very sparingly and only when there is plenty of data driven evidence that a change would have a positive impact on the game.

1373

Hurling games are brilliant, no need for messing around. Last years all Ireland was out of this world as were many others. Just leave it alone

Even if you can see no problem with how the most intrinisic equipment piece of the game of hurling has changed over time, surely you must still question what will the next 50 years hold for the hurl/hurley? If this rate of change continues unchecked, what will the hurl look like, what will be the effects on the game?

I'm not claiming that changes to the hurley are the major reason as to why the game itself has evolved, but the hurl has changed to accommodate this evolution. We often hear it stated that the game is evolving and that is a good thing, but is it really? With each major evolution we lose another bit of magic from the game, another bit of the in play jeopardy that made hurling great, masked somewhat by the ever increasing athleticism of the players, the increased scoring rates, the increased speed of the play.

Yes, hurling is still a wonderful game, a game that changed immensely over the years for better or for worse, but I don't know why the hurl has been allowed to change so much with it. I often think to myself how is it possible that players can simply change something so fundamental to the game, the hurl, from an ash one to a bamboo one or a composite one or to wield something like shown below that almost looks comical in it dimensions and no one bats an eyelid! In what other sport would this be possible?

Montys return

First of all, I would agree with the above posters that there shouldn't be rules that are just roundly ignored. So either there is a rule on bas size that is well defined, or there is no limit. To my knowledge, there is no rule on weight or length of the hurley which would have equally contributed to changes in how the game is played. On the material used, I think the Bambu hurley and other alternatives are neccessities due to both ash dieback and supply chain issues so don't see the problem there.

Regarding the question of how the game changes, I would caution people to remember the disgust many neutral observers felt having watched Waterford v Wexford in the 2017 quarter final. Both sides played defensively to stifle each other and it made for a poor spectacle. If you make it harder to score from distance, control the ball etc then a possible consequence is to encourage the sort of shutdown tactics which actually led to the widespread commentary of how gaelic football became such an arduous watch and that something needed to be done about it.

At the same time, the handpass (off the hurley only) and steps should be addressed I think and if they did that it would help in creating a more direct game as it would be harder to work the ball in the backs to get those clear, long range shooting opportunities which come to easily now.

BQQ

The larger bas leads to a more consistent strike as there are less mis-hits, but it doesn’t hit the ball any further

The major factor is the sliotar

Speaking as someone old enough to have played with the old equipment - I can hit it further now using a Hurley with a very small bas than I could when I was young and in peak fitness

As for how to address it - I don’t think they’re going to revisit the sliotar after all the work to standardise it

Some regulations on Hurley size would go some way towards lowering scoring as it will lead to more mis-hits, but points from inside your own half are here to stay

Mantis Toboggan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123236513#Comment_123236513

Would agree 100% with this one, also ban the double handpass, ie if a player receives a handpass he must play the ball on the hurley, would stop teams throwing and running the ball up the field.