29000s - when will they be replaced?

dublincc2

Bit of a rant here but also raising some important issues.

I have had the misfortune if having to travel on these rattleboxes every weekday for the last few weeks and every time I get on one of them the worse they seem to get.

When they were first introduced back in the 00s I remember being somewhat impressed, as much as one can be with a commuter DMU. However it seems to the naked eye that they haven’t gotten any substantial maintenance or a deep clean since then. They are extremely noisy, which I suppose could be expected but I haven’t had the same experience with the 3000/4000 NIR trains which are basically the same.

They are disgusting, to the point I actually believe they are a health hazard. The floors are filthy, bubbling up and mismatched. There is mould around the windows and an unpleasant odour throughout the carriage. I’m sure this combined with poor ventilation is the cause of many respiratory issues/viruses.

The toilets (when they are working) are disgraceful, piss everywhere on the floor, toilet bowl stuffed with paper and generally just an absolute mess. For female passengers I assume many would rather stay seated and wet themselves in the chair because I cannot see how any woman with self-respect would even attempt to make such a facility usable for herself. My wife and daughters avoid train toilets for this reason. Of course nobody expects a gold plated pan with quilted silk toilet roll, but they could at least make an effort.

The seats as well are in a very bad state, many of them torn or with burn marks, stains, crumbs and litter. The very few tables that are available are invariably dirty. On the 22000 most of the tables are acceptably clean.

Then there is the doors, there must be something wrong with the handle, or perhaps it’s the hinges, but it feels like you are pulling the weight of the whole train.

With DART+ and other such projects, when will IÉ likely retire these units?

PlatformNine

I don't think they will be retired so soon, as they are just half way through their life time, and I don't think IE is in the position to retire rolling stock that still has a decent life span left. I don't think they will be retired until 2040 at the earliest.

However, that doesn't answer what will happen to them after D+ but before retirement. Hopefully as D+ progresses the need for 29Ks in the GDA should decrease, maybe even completely phase them out of GDA services. They should hopefully be mostly or completely GDA service by around 2030. Then for the last 10-15 years of their life, my current theory is that they will be refurbished and sent elsewhere. Being replaced in the 2040s by another similar DMU set, or replaced by the sames set that will eventually replace the 22Ks.

end of the road

they are over-worked being sent often to rosslare and sometimes sligo and belfast and it looks like they are just patched up to safe operational condition and sent out in all honesty rather then having proper cleans and much more extensive care.

certainly dispite the little riggle room available a lot better care could be taken of them as their state is unjustifiable, however the reality is they clearly need a full refurbishment and that can't happen until there is enough stock in service which would allow them to be spared for a while.

some of the 22ks aren't much younger and dispite being flogged on suburban services they are holding up well from what i can see which is interesting.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122809292#Comment_122809292

The Economic life of most passenger rolling stock is 30 to 35 years. The technical life is approx 20 years. After 20 years they generally need a major overhaul.

Generally speaking after 30 years, things have moved on so much that it isn't economical to overhaul them.

That being said there are exceptions:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBB-CFF-FFS_Re_420

The 29000's need a major overhaul at this point. I was at Tara St station the day before yesterday and the last set clearly had something wrong with it's Prime Mover. The rattley noise out of it, it was so loud. They're also in bits on the inside.

The problem is getting someone to sign-off on overhauling a Diesel MU when there are things like the FLIRT with a battery coming into service on other railways around the world. (You can see the battery car in the middle below, it can be configured to just charge at stations reducing the need for overhead catenary)

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122812954#Comment_122812954

I know they are in poor state, however I do think IE is still going to try and get 35-40 years out of them if they can. I based that both on the 8100s despite being EMUs and also the 2600s which based on how CACR is progressing will be retired in the late 2020s or early 2030s. I don't think refurbishing diesel units is going to be looked at too nicely, especially because I don't believe they have the ability to be converted to hybrid units like the 22Ks. But I think it might be done out of a need for capacity. Honestly I think they could be sent to Limerick as part of LSMATS to increase rail capacity before electrification/decarbonisation with OHLE and/or BEMU units. If all goes well the commuter services should be decarbonised around 2040, when the 29Ks are 35-40.

Vic_08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122812954#Comment_122812954

That's not a battery hybrid, the centre car contains 4 x 16 litre diesel engines for use away from AC power which is where these are primarily used.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122814006#Comment_122814006

Don't think so
It says they have battery powered ones here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrtmVS5T4z8

Maybe I got the wrong image, They look similar.

Just to add, Hydrogen powered trains are now a thing, this is not a prototype, a railway can procure this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Aco2hgVlRQ

It's very hard to justify overhauling a bunch of old DMUs (including engine rebuilds which most of them will probably need) When things like the above are available to purchase.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122814006#Comment_122814006

That is right, the picture is the Class 755, which has 4 Diesel generators. However that is the beauty of these FLIRT trains, they are modular. That section in the middle can be Diesel generators, or batteries or a mix of both batteries and Diesel gens or the latest option hydrogen fuel cells, all in addition to the OHLE up top.

As you needs change and technology develops, so easy to swap out that center section with Diesel gens with a new one full of next gen batteries or hydrogen fuel cells.

The simplicity and modularity of this FLIRT concept really appeals to me. A piece of brilliant engineering IMO.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122815415#Comment_122815415

Just to add, Hydrogen powered trains are now a thing, this is not a prototype, a railway can procure this

Hydrogen fuel cells definitely work, but the issue tends to be the cost of fuel. It is like 3 to 4 times more expensive then Diesel.

Obviously OHLE electrification is the best option, but in the mean time I think the option of Diesel + Batteries is a decent one, if you can guarantee to run off the batteries in stations and in the built up areas of towns and cities. Of course the government might just decide to swallow the extra cost of hydrogen for the quieter lines/services in order to meet climate goals.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122811057#Comment_122811057

The 22ks have had interior refreshes - carpets, sidewalls, seat covers - that have made a huge impact in making them look newer than they are.

The 29ks have had seat covers, but a very long time ago. The floor replacement should help with the appearance a bit too.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122816973#Comment_122816973

fair point, but i think even with a bit of a refresh the 29s would have quite a bit to go before being any bit presentable.

the 22ks generally seem to be better looked after as a whole from what i can personally see but that is just my experience.

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122816942#Comment_122816942

They are doing something like this in Wales for the "South Wales Metro". They've ordered a bunch of Flirt sets - 11 of which being diesel only and 17 sets being Tri-mode (Diesel, overhead & battery) - due to the nature of the lines being converted.

https://tfw.wales/projects/metro/south-wales-metro/trains-and-stations

SeanW

Yes, the FLIRTs are basically EMU sets that you can add a power pack to, and that can be batteries or diesel or whatever a particular railway needs.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122816964#Comment_122816964

Yup and supply could potentially be an issue and also I think for industrial applications they use gasification to collect Hydrogen (Hopefully it mostly from Biomass) which also releases CO2 and CO

I'm guessing "Long term" the price of Diesel will go up, while the price of Hydrogen will go down (Maybe, or at least stay stagnant).

Praetorian

I can't wait for the 29K's to be gone. They are so incredibly noisy and not in the glorious kind of 071 way. Why do they need to rev when braking!? Horrible trains with woeful top speeds and I can't wait for them to be gone. I will concede they are damn reliable. ;)

thosewhoknow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122815415#Comment_122815415

085 is being converted to hydrogen power as we speak. I’d imagine that they’ll see how well it does in service before buying a passenger fleet.

On the topic of the FLIRTs, I’d be surprised if Stadler haven’t submitted them for the new Enterprise tender. Irish Rail are likely on Stadler’s radar after they traveled to Germany to see the Class 93s and the FLIRTs have been fairing well on intercity service in East Anglia and Slovenia, and their battery/electric option would suit the Enterprise well — especially when DART+ North is complete and I’ve also heard rumours NIR are looking into electrification.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123283125#Comment_123283125

The revving you hear is because they use hydro dynamic braking, to reduce wear on other components.

Stonekeeper2024

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123287854#Comment_123287854

"when DART + is complete"

It never will be mate. I was in primary school when they started talking about DART underground and the Metro. I can show you leaflets from when the DART itself was launched back in the 1980s that show a plan for a DART west, they never bothered.

They'll find a few billion to buy another election with giveaways and that's how it will be p1ssed away by a gleeful Irish electorate with no long term thinking then they'll spend their giveaway, forget about it 5 minutes later, then go back to complaining it takes them 2 hours to get home from work. This is a country of morons led by morons.

The set up as is can't even handle 10 minute darts! They can't get a simple logical obvious change like the Rosslare train stopping at Bray through…they can't even get that through without them MOANING about it …they're moaning about it even though it gets them EXTRA TRAINS…they want the extra trains AND their asses in seats all the way to Connolly, but they can't have both so they'll get nothing instead. It can't handle 10 minute darts or a few knackers stealing a bit of copper there is no way it's going to handle all this extra stuff they are planning without major physical changes to the infrastructure and this is a country where they speak of widening the tunnel so they can 2 track the Bray-Greystones line as some sort of impossible dream.

IrishTrainScenes

will be atleast 2035 before the 29Ks go

Phil.x

I was on one the other day where they removed five seats at the toilet and put in seven cinema style flip up seats and painted bicycle symbols on the floor. As it was peak travel time I was sitting on these new seats but mother of God they are sh1t, you are basically crammed in, totally ridiculous, they need to remove one seat, or better still remove all the seats and just have standing as the m3 to docklands is overcrowded.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123643154#Comment_123643154

That is presumably one of the ones - or the only one, cause I've never seen any - with the new floors.

When the toilet tank wasn't stinking, the two seat section at those toilets was a great seat… plug socket and nobody to sit beside you!

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123643154#Comment_123643154

It might not be as comfortable, but it’s more seats than previous, and it functions better for standing room on busier services.
I’ve been on m3 services in the morning, and people have had to stand in the disabled toilet, due to overcrowding. It’s not good enough.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123643161#Comment_123643161

They are being done alongside the PIS upgrade in Heuston, which currently takes two weeks per 4 car set.
The new floors are being done in Connolly, and they take about a month.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123644755#Comment_123644755

I've been on loads of units with the new PIS but not noticed anything other than worn out floors in any. Use the train 6+ times a week.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123644772#Comment_123644772

I’ll get you a list of the ones with the new floors.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123644772#Comment_123644772

If it’s taking a month per set, there won’t be that many completed so far to be fair.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123645354#Comment_123645354

Should be more than half completed then.

goingnowhere

Only a handful left with the old PIS at this stage, the floor is a bigger job. It was deferred/hidden from for years really should have been dealt with a long time ago.