Irish equivalent of ancient Greek Phrase?

Bluscreendream

Hey guys,

There is an ancient Greek phrase "the golden mean", aka "the middle way". It appears in Euripides' Medea and it was a philosophy propounded by Aristotle. The literal translation is “nothing too much” (= there should be nothing excessive). It's a famous phrase, which was also translated to Latin as ne quid nimis.

Would anyone know if there is an Irish version of this phrase?

Btw if it helps the philosophy, as I understand it, involves balancing the excess and deficiency of certain virtues thus "the middle way" (not to be confused with the golden ratio which is a mathematical constant).

Many thanks,

B

Esel

Literal translation of The middle way:

An slí láir

Peregrinus

"Nothing to excess" or "nothing too much" is one of the Delphic maxims that were said to be inscribed on the entrance to the Temple of Apollo at Delphi. That makes it older than Aristotle, but both Aristotle and Plato do discuss the same idea, and Aristotle in particular makes a big deal of virtue as being located in the middle place between excess and deficiency. Ne quid nimis is the Latin translation of the maxim.

To the Greeks and, later, the Romans, the maxim mainly referred to the emotions, or to the display of emotions — you should not be excessively proud, display excessive grief, etc, but always strive to express yourself and conduct yourself with moderation.

The Delphic maxims didn't receive a lot of attention during the medieval period but with the renaissance came a renewed interest. The "nothing to excess" maxim was largely taken to be a reference to the appetites rather than to the emotions — so, a counsel against gluttony, drunkeness, lust, extravagance, etc.

As for an Irish equivalent, there is a proverb is fearr tine beag a théamh ná tine mhór a dhóitear, meaning "better a little fire that warms than a big fire that burns", which is a metaphor that captures broadly the same idea.

Esel

Literal translation of The Golden Mean:

An Meán Órga

iniscealtra

Is leor don dreoilín a nead. - A nest is enough for the wren. Anti-consumption/materialist phrase. I thank that encourages moderation. Hold ón there now, don’t loose the rún of yourself.

Emotionnally not so sure.

Bluscreendream

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122670691#Comment_122670691

This is fascinating, thanks so much, and I will really keep that Irish proverb 🙂

Bluscreendream

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122670671#Comment_122670671

Hi Esel,

Thank you, I really like the sound of this translation, but can I ask, as An slí láir is a direct literal translation, to a fluent Irish speaker, would this make sense, would the meaning be clear or would it sound a bit tacky or ridiculous do you think?

thanks,
B

Esel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122673355#Comment_122673355

I think it works well. They are both very short phrases (noun and adjective).

I used this site for the translations.

http://focloir.ie

Bluscreendream

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122674092#Comment_122674092

Thanks again. It's good to know that the the translation actually makes sense, I'm planning to make a sign of the phrase for a quiet section of a garden, and as it will be frequented by a few Gaeilgeoirí, them making the connection would mean a lot 😊

Peregrinus

Lár works, but it could be a bit confusing or ambiguous because, as well as meaning "centre, middle", lár also means "basis, floor, ground". You have idioms like ó mullach go lár (from top to bottom) and bheith ar lár (to be on the ground; to be laid low; to be fallen). So an slí láir could be understood as something like the way down, the way to the bottom, the fundamental or foundational way.

An mheán-slí might work better. Meán means "middle" in the sense of mean, median, average. Where you have a single object, like a circle, then you use lár for the centre of the circle. But where you have an array or range or spectrum , you use meán for the middle — the middle finger is an mhéar mheáin, not an mhear láir.

Finally, another option would be measartha, moderate. Slí na measarthachta would be "the way of moderation".

Esel

Maybe

Slí na meáin

Same structure as

Slí na fírinne (literally "way of the truth") signifying 'dead/death' e.g.

Tá siad ar shlí na fírinne

They are gone to their eternal reward

Bluscreendream

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122674762#Comment_122674762

Hi Peregrinus, thanks again for your guidance on this, my fear was that the direct translation would result in the original essence of "the middle way" phrase being lost, I know there cannot be an exact Greek to Irish translation, but if a fluent Irish speaker were to read An mheán-slí and even take away the gist of the original phrase, (even after I explained the meaning of the Greek phrase) that would mean a lot. The text being translated as "the way to the bottom" as an slí lair would be extremely tragic 😄

I have to say, I really like the sound of An mheán-slí as phonetically it has a nice ring to it and it kind of rolls of the tongue. If you don't mind me asking, are you happy with the hyphen after the n and would I be able to capitalise the m and s so the final phrase would be as follows

An Mheán-Slí

This is not a deal breaker, sine typing this I actually think a lower case m and s looks classier! I'm just curious as I'm probably going to get this made into a sign.

many thanks,
B

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122673355#Comment_122673355

If it hadn't already been explained to me here in English, I wouldn't have a clue what "an slí láir" meant. I certainly wouldn't imagine that it had anything to do with the original Greek phrase.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122687770#Comment_122687770

I couldn't reccommend using "an mheán-slí". What is it the middle of, and how would you know?

Peregrinus' suggestion of "slí na measarthachta" is an excellent phrase that provides precisely the meaning required, IMO!

pandoraj09

Just reading this thread now. I wouldn't have a clue what an slí láir was supposed to mean either nor do I think "an mheán-slí" gets across the concept. Slí na measarthachta certainly works I was trying to think of something else and I came up with "gan flúirse gan díth" which translates as without excess, without want ie moderation is the way to go. I think it would be good for a sign into a part of a garden.

Bluscreendream

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122793862#Comment_122793862

Hi, would "an mheán-slí" not even translate as "the middle way" for you? Because I'm happy enough with that, from there, if people ask I could explain the concept, I don't expect to be able to encapsulate the original Greek expression in a few Irish words. The other options are a bit too long and clunky sounding for the sign, cheers.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122813996#Comment_122813996

You have said that you want a sign for the "gaeilgeoirí" who will visit. I'm a possible client, as I assume is Peregrinus.

The phrase "an mheán slí" means nothing to me, or rather - there is a path to the right and another to the left.

If you use this phrase, you will be confusing - or maybe better - perplexing those who understand Irish.

Maybe what you really mean is that you want some simple Irish words that are easy for learners to understand - while not managing to get the message itself across? This may make the learners feel good in themselves, as they will say to themselves "Oh, I know these words" - but your actual message is conspicuous in its absence.