United 767 entering runway at Heathrow too close?

davepatr07

Just curious to find out the opinions of any pilots or ATC folk out there about what happened here in this video at Heathrow a few days ago, dont think Ive ever seen this happen before and is this normal ops?

United 767 enters runway 27R literally right up the ass of a BA A320 NEO about to depart and caught in jetblast.

https://youtu.be/yvX_q1DHJg8?si=WJpDpXwP3z7VvTux

HTCOne

Standard procedure at LHR I think. IIRC the phraseology used by tower is “United 123, line up behind British Airways A320 behind”, ie they say “behind" twice. Those LHR runways are regularly swept for FOD.

I’ve only ever seen them do it with heavies behind mediums though. I wouldn’t fancy a Q400\ATR’s chances behind an A380. The US carriers seem to follow a lot closer behind the preceeding departure however...

knucklehead6

having looked at the video I’d say the u it’s crew will have some explaining to do. The united jet is moved back by the force of the jet wash/exhaust from the speedbird.

Tenger

That does indeed seem very close.

I had forgotten that BA have that lovely livery

cml387

Pilots are always under pressure to keep the flow going at Heathrow, looks like pilot was being a bit too proactive.

lintdrummer

Standard Ops in LHR, the only airport I've operated to that does this. As soon as you are cleared to line up behind a departing traffic, you are expected to cross the hold short line regardless of the fact that the runway is occupied. They want you to be in position ready to take off as soon as the previous departure has lifted off.

Maybe the Speedbird was a bit slow to get rolling but the United crew could have used better judgement and taxied slowly until they heard the BA apply takeoff power and saw them rolling. I always thought of the procedure as "creeping up".

The actual wording from the LHR charts is:

When receiving a conditional line-up CLR on a preceding DEP ACFT, remain behind the subject ACFT but may cross RWY HLDG point (subject to there being no illuminated red stop bar) and enter RWY upon receipt CLR. There is no requirement for the subject ACFT to have commenced its TKOF roll before entering RWY. Be aware of the blast hazard.

Seems United were a bit cavalier about the blast hazard and the only really unusual part of the video is that they rolled backwards.

@HTCOne the standard phraseology is “United 123, behind the departing British Airways A320, line up runway 27R behind”. It's not connected to this procedure and is used worldwide. Saying "behind" twice is designed to emphasise that you are not cleared to enter the runway until the preceding aircraft has moved away. The exception is LHR.

vswr

BA wasn't good to go, even though they had been cleared to take off

Usual steps is:

-clear A/C on runway to take off

-clear next A/C in line to enter and line up on runway while other A/C is taking off

Rinse and repeat

There's a level of expectation of the A/C in front doing what it is cleared to do, at the time it is cleared to do so.

As mentioned above, it's standard ops for an A/C to roll onto the runway at Heathrow while the A/C in front is starting to roll..

767's aren't easy to stop, pilot got cleared to line up…. 767 rolled in anticipation BA would roll also… BA didn't, don't think there was comms from the BA either, 767 hesitated as to whether they would or not, and hence the situation we end up with….

Haven't seen an A/C sit lined up for as long at that BA was, at Heathrow ever.

bikeman1

My armchair and unqualified observation is that the BA was not ready and should not have been on the runway and wasn't ready for the take off clearance for whatever reason. There can be a lot of expecting things to move along in LHR and you have to keep moving or else you get very close to each other. I'd say the surprise on the United was that the A320 pushed a 767 backwards with its blast!

john boye

I seem to remember an incident involving a speedbird in Dublin a few years ago and it was said that some BA pilots have a habit of saying they're ready when they're not.

EchoIndia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122647096#Comment_122647096

That's usually to do with receiving final data from the company. I can't see them lining up at LHR unless actually ready, though. The procedures at DUB also require an aircraft to be ready to depart without delay once it enters the runway and if there is any doubt aircraft usually advise tower before lining up.