Mark 4 - 3 spare carriages?

TheSunIsShining

Hi

Irish Rail website seems to say there are 67 Mark 4 carriages? It implies there are 3 spare standard class carriages? If that's correct, why don't they make 3 of the sets be 9 carriages, rather than 8 given how busy the Cork-Dublin route is getting? Time it to use the 9 sets on say the 7am out of Cork and the 5pm and 6pm out of Dublin. Am I missing something obvious? I

TranslatorPS

Operational spares are a must ;)

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122313453#Comment_122313453

There is a full trainset kept as a spare i think?

TranslatorPS

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122313501#Comment_122313501

There is, but if something stacks up together and that spare is gone out then you'd be left with nothing altogether – this, combined with turnaround shuffling, allows to keep as much on the road as possible, instead of reducing train lengths.

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122317021#Comment_122317021

I'm genuinely interested in this? Would it not be better to run 9 carriage trainsets and have no spares - and if a carriage needed to come out for repair on the 8 train sets for any reason, to allow that one to drop down to 7 if you had to? And if you were down to 7, then be smart in terms of what times the 7, 8 or 9 sets run on?

The_Wanderer

Ah the armchair experts are out ;) ;)

Six sets are required to run the service with sets "7" and "8" being the running maintenance set and heavy maintenance sets respectively. If you diagrammed more train sets to service, the limiting factor is there is only one spare GC (Generator Control), FO (First Open),RB (Restaurant Buffet) and (SOE) Standard End vehicles. For example if you have 7 sets diagrammed and your spare GC is in Inchicore undergoing heavy maintenance and you lose another GC vehicle (for whatever reason) you are then short a complete set as you've no vehicle to replace the newly defective vehicle. This would result in A cancellation of services or B replacement by a 22000 Class but that needs to be taken from elsewhere so you need to reduce capacity on several services across the board.

You cannot run 9MKIV in normal service as several platforms are only long enough for 8 vehicles, indeed Ballybrophy is "just" long enough to fit a 8MKIV set and special stop boards are in place to ensure trains are fully berthed on the platform correctly. Some other platforms which can only take 8 are Cork, Mallow, Thurles etc.

The six sets work through a cycle of diagrams over a the 7 day period so they reach Inchicore for their maintenance exam so even if the platform issue was limited to just one or two stations it still would be hard to make up a 9pce train and keep it to one block of services.

Hopefully that explains some of the reasons behind the rational of why things are the way they are.

W

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122318830#Comment_122318830

Thanks! So with Cork-Dublin so busy, what could be done? Like does the route allow for half hour running at peak times or would there be a signalling issue/capacity issue for platforms in Cork or Dublin? Or are there new trainsets for the route ordered given the lead time for our Irish gauge?!

Or would the planned Cork commuter to Mallow impact there as well?

Hadn't copped that 9 is too long for lots of the stations - thanks for explaining that!

L1011

There's nothing ordered or under tender for that line

DART+ will, over time, release 22ks that currently operate various commuter services (Hazelhatch - Heuston/GCD services, M3 Parkway services and filler elsewhere) which could operate Cork, as could the few extra sets that the centre car order will create.

Albeit there won't be enough 22k First/Premium cars to go around - I expect Waterford may lose its declassified First cars in that case (if they even still have it?). The Belfast hourly is going to need more of these also; until its replacements are delivered - and they are not ordered yet.

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122319169#Comment_122319169

Does the line have capacity to go beyond hourly? And given the lead in time, probably need to order soon no? What's the expected lifetime of the Mark 4s?

The_Wanderer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122319193#Comment_122319193

You could run 6 trains an hour south of Portarlington to Cork, bear in mind you also need 1 path for Limerick and 1 for Tralee as well and between Portarlington and Heuston a lot of those paths are already used.

The strategic plan is to go 1/2 hourly in the peak hours, additional stock would be required which could be freed up by sets released by the DART+ orders.

No plans on MK4 replacement yet as far as I understand.

goingnowhere

There were discussions back in the early days of the hourly service to have 2 9 coach sets to target the busiest trains

Mk4's never delivered the reliability expected and were plagued with faults and minor rebuilds so those spares came in handy

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122332002#Comment_122332002

That's a pity, esp now with so many of the 8 carriage trains full. Thanks for the info

The_Wanderer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122332002#Comment_122332002

And would have been a nightmare to keep them on those particular services. Far better to have a standard fleet size, especially as the only location coaches can be added /removed is at Inchicore due to the semi-permanently coupled nature of the carriages.

trellheim

The service was specified originally for hourly, that required 7x8 car sets , with one 8 car set in maintenance plus 3 spare vehs comes to 67.

Over time it would seem that set No.7 seems to be taken for day maintenance (perhaps an incorrect term) for what used to be done over night. Again I may be mis-stating.

I believe though that it should be possible to diagram set 7 once it comes off day maintenance and then you should be able to run clockface MK4 all day long . This would free up some 22s and increase capacity for other places they are really badly needed.

Sit in Heuston station and watch the spare Mk4 set for when its there

goingnowhere

The Mk4 was never specified for hourly Dublin Cork services

It was specified to replace the Mk2d fleet and to cover the peak service pairs on Cork, Tralee, Limerick and Galway. Take a look at the digital map at the doors…

There was an option in the contract for another 4 sets.

The S&W GM (now the Irish Rail chairperson) took the initiative to introduce an hourly Dublin Cork service using the fleet as it just about worked out. Had CAF's build quality met contractual standards it would have worked. CAF made a mess and failed on ride quality and reliability.

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122367935#Comment_122367935

Well, whether linked to build standards or not, the ride is insanely bouncy - especially the further you are from Dublin so perhaps it's linked to the track but I thought a lot was quite new, even at the Cork end?

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122368214#Comment_122368214

It was blamed on the track but the Mark 3s were known and renowned for their ride quality and performed much better on the same track.

trellheim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122367935#Comment_122367935

But it did work for several years once it went hourly, so the sets can do it - we know that . Happy to be corrected on the original spec.

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122368592#Comment_122368592

I assume, if the journey time was 2.5 hours, that six sets should do? Leave both stations at say 7am, 8am, 9am. The 7am should arrive in other station at 9.30am and ideally be ready to leave at 10am? But even now, with 7 sets being used, there are certain times which isn't a Mark IV train?

goingnowhere

It never really worked. After launch of the hourly service a spare Mk3 citygold set was held in both Cork and Dublin and was regularly pushed into service. The coaches were plagued with faults, suspension bolts, doors, wiring etc. All the inter coach connector cables have been replaced, bogies reworked etc

While in theory possible with 6 active sets that needs journey times to consistently less than 2:30 to allow for turnaround, cleaning and margin for delays, we are some way off this, so you need 7 sets to run todays timetable and that leaves no spare as the 8th set will be tied up in Inchicore.

trellheim

"While in theory possible with 6 active sets that needs journey times to consistently less than 2:30 to allow for turnaround, cleaning and margin for delays, we are some way off this, so you need 7 sets to run todays timetable and that leaves no spare as the 8th set will be tied up in Inchicore."

I agree with this BUT why not run the spare. What percentage of the time is the spare actually needed ?

The_Wanderer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122367935#Comment_122367935

It was actually Dick Fearn who was COO at the time came up with the hourly timetable proposal, sat at home one Sunday afternoon and wrote out a timetable and set plan to see would the idea in his head work. It did, and he went to the CEO Joe Meagher on Monday morning to lay out the proposal. Dick told me that story himself. From that date the idea of sending MK4's to all four corners of the country was pretty much dead.

TheSunIsShining

Well any which way, Cork-Dublin is at capacity on lots of trains at this stage. So I assume something will have to give - bigger trains or more trains.

I'm somewhat cynical too at the coverage the other day about their being more passenger journeys than ever before. The population is bigger than it ever was - absolute measures like that should be linked back to a per capita measure to give a proper comparison.

The_Wanderer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122370952#Comment_122370952

Time to hold head in hands….I thought I explained this in detail earlier but obviously I didn't.

Why would you run the spare? The object of running a railway is to offer a "boringly reliable railway". The customer turns up for his train that is always there, the seat he has booked is there (not going down the rabbit hole of people sitting in reserved seats - that's a culture issue) and the journey is hassle free.

A scenario:

IE decide to run 7 sets, that leaves no contingency for unplanned events such as on the day failures of equipment, if you lose a Generator Control, First, Buffet or Standard End vehicle (couples to loco) due to a major defect (wheel issue for example) that means the entire train set is not available. As I have explained before, that then means a different (and smaller train) operating the service. That train needs to be taken from elsewhere so more than one route is affected with smaller trains or possibly cancellations. Suddenly you're not running a "boringly reliable railway" and IE all over the news outlets like Cork Beo and the stakeholders start asking the question, "what on earth is going on?"

IE tell the stakeholders: "Trellheim on boards.ie demanded that we run all our MK4 sets and therefore we now have no spare sets. We have 2 GC type vehicles stopped, one requires a bogie change and underframe repairs after striking a concrete block left on the track by vandals and the 2nd is part way through Heavy Maintenance overhaul and is awaiting the 2 generator sets to be placed back inside it. We estimate it will be another 7 to 10 days before we will have a set back. Therefore to ensure service reliability we have no choice but to cancel the 0800, 1600 Heuston - Cork, 1125 & 1925 Cork - Heuston services until the 22nd July. This is to ensure that we can operate the remaining sets reliably. However if we run into further unplanned issues within the next week we may have to look at further cancellations on the Cork route."

Spares are there for reason, to ensure vehicles are maintained to the scheduled maintenance exams which range from the basic in-service A, A+, B, C Exams and the various heavy maintenance exams, to ensure there is contingency to operate the service if an "in-service" set develops problems and basically operate a boringly reliable railway to all intents and purposes.

To recap.

You need 7 sets to run an hourly service. Running 7 MKIV sets would severely affect the reliability and punctuality performance on the Cork route with no spare capacity, do remember these metrics (and others such as lost car KM) are measured and recorded for the NTA who will fine the operator for poor performance.

The diagram planning rules are structured in such a way to ensure the sets that overnight in Cork rotate back to Dublin (to access train wash and maintenance facilities), the Dublin - Cork services with Tralee line connections at Mallow are MKIV operated therefore offering maximum capacity and that MKIV's operate all the evening peak services ex Heuston between 1500 & 1900.

With those constraints you are at the optimum solution so please accept that running all the MKIV sets with NO spare capacity is simply a BONKERS idea which will result in greater unreliability and disruption to your journey.

I hope that the above explains it for once and for all.

W

trellheim

You went for sarcasm instead of answering the question. What percentage of the time is the spare pressed into service ?

goingnowhere

The 8th set is not 'spare' its in pieces in Inchicore for planned maintenance

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122380768#Comment_122380768

I think you got probably the most detailed explanation of the rationale that any of us are entitled to, to be honest.

That sort of stat isn't going to be put in the public domain, to be fair.

TheSunIsShining

The story on how Cork went hourly is mad - but really interesting. Really think, given how long it will take to get new trainsets, that it would be good to decide very soon on what the future plans are.

By the way - given your knowledge and insight. How far away are we from an improvement on journey time? Wasn't there discussions a while back on trying to aim for 2 hours? Like with the bus on the motorway being 3 hours from almost next to Kent to O'Connell Bridge, the train could do with an improvement....

And thanks for the explanations!

TranslatorPS

I still think that trellheim is missing the point of why a spare is called and considered a spare and not part of the daily service. Operations on the scale of Irish Rail, public transport or not, are simply not done without backup.

dowlingm

trellheim - you got a direct answer from Wanderer but I assure you others were thinking it. You got an explanation and rather than take it up with Irish Rail you came back looking for an answer closer to your liking.

Right now in Canada, VIA Rail is deploying its new Siemens trains to replace trainsets far far beyond their sell by date. However, a Renaissance (ex Nightstar) trainset is still running between Quebec City and Montreal a few times a week to cover unplanned train unavailability in the Siemens fleet - trains that were mostly copies of trains already running in America for Brightline and others and thus thought to be reliable - when the Rens were supposed to be retired by the end of May in “Corridor” service, doubtless annoying at least some passengers who were expecting new trains on their service.

The amount of carriages available does not reflect 7 days a week capacity and pushing that to the limit has consequences.