CI recommendations on Road Racing ..

Junior

The working group put to gether by cycling Ireland came up with the following recommendations

The 10 points recommended are as follows; 

1. Migrate Full Licence Racing Categories from 4 to 3 & Modify Limited Competition Licence

2. Create a Tiered Race Categorisation Structure 

3. Changes to the grading points in line with Race Categorisation

4. Continued work towards a more balanced calendar based on Race Categorisation

5. Encourage promotion of a Women's Calendar Annually

6. Create Opportunities for Masters Racing

7. Create ‘Road Cycling Cup' at each Category replacing the National Series.

8. Centralised Interactive Cycling Ireland System for Race Promotion in one place.

9. Modernisation of Road Racing

10. Set out minimum standards of Medical Cover & Race Facilities for National Events

They all seem very aspirational, bar the reduction of categories from 4 to 3. I would have preferred to see some concrete paths for what they are going to do and when.

Full Article Here - https://www.cyclingireland.ie/news-item/cycling-ireland-announce-recommendations-from-the-road-working-group-aimed-to-increase-road-racing-numbers-and-quality-of-races

LCD

Well done to CI for looking into it.

Does it cater for underage riders moving to Junior into senior sufficiently? I personally feel that masters racing is hurting underage racing and the sports development at a youth level. In most sports, once you stop participating/playing you start giving back, organising events, coaching at an underage level. In cycling you keep focusing on your own competitions well into your 50 and even 60s.

Macy0161

Firstly, well done to those that volunteered to look at it and bring it forward.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122275028#Comment_122275028

In my experience, there's far more former racers still involved socially rather than carrying on racing. There's also a significant cohort that only started cycling at coming up to masters/ vets age.

However, I would think the biggest issue for underage racers/ riders is general road safety (either real or perceived) rather than lack of support from older racers.

dahat

Clubs run the Irish road racing scene with little to input from CI on your standard race day. Alot of these measures seem great but application & buy in from what is an ageing cohort of background teams won’t be forthcoming.

CramCycle

Dose anyone have a link to the actual report, there isn't much to take from the 10 points, but I presume they were written by a PR person rather than the working group.

magicbastarder

'modernisation of road racing' = electric bikes. Get with the times.

this.lad

RWGPresentation.pdf

There it is, the re s a summary word doc in the roadcrace calendar thread.

this.lad

What I'd say is, firstly, at least they're looking at it and willing to do something.

After that it will be interesting to see what happens with a pathway for youths up along. I'd hate to think though that you'd have to hang up your bike at 50 and go coachingkids. in reality thats not what happens in other sports. Sure some former players help out but it's 1%

Macy0161

Thinking about that comment, i wouldn't be near the oldest if I played with my gaa clubs junior teams, even before you get into the likes of 5 a side.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122275556#Comment_122275556

5 a side, where the nearly retired try to break the knees of the new hires, a fiercer sport I have never played.

CramCycle

Had a quick look through it, seems like a decent bit of analysis went in to it, I do think they could have went a better route in selection by piking a few people who are not successful riders or who have stopped coming. All the people who volunteered are great but they are not really a true representation of the riders who are still signing up for some but nowhere near as many races. This is going to seem like criticism but it is not, the ideas are solid, but maybe there were one or two that should have went further.

1. I think they missed an obvious trick when they said you don't have to upgrade until the end of the season. They mention the cost of running races but then never go back to it. Prize money needs to be scrapped in the lower category. Why would I upgrade when I have the buzz of winning and my entry fee returned to me regularly is what some of the better C3 racers will think (and there are some who downgrade annually or refuse an upgrade). There should never have been prize money in A4 and they missed a trick by not outright banning it at C3 as a recommendation.
2. IN regards banning local races at weekends, it was technically always there but roundly ignored. I am all in favour of it being ignored, my local race not being on a Saturday is not going to encourage me to drive for X hours to a race. I think they missed that part of why a lot of riders don't go races at weekends regularly anymore, and that is simply, when it was spiking in popularity, it was seem as the parent being active, keeping healthy etc, now it is seen as the parent f*cking off for a day and most parents don't think that's fair. I'd agree. My local races are a way to get racing but not lose a day.
3. They mention a tiered system but also missed why the ICVA is so popular. It is the actual properly tiered system, where riders are graded by the organisers and regraded as appropriate. Its the reason the A2s don't go to NRS unless its local, because they don't want to be humiliated after being upgraded from A3 and get dropped by the same 10 lads who drill if for 30 minutes and blow everyone out the back in the first hour.
4. They also make the same mistake Cycling Leinster made a few years ago making this leap: Weekend race participation suffering due to growth in midweek racing. The two aren't related. I race mid week because I can call in on my way home and only add 2 hours onto my day. If it is at the weekend, I am gone just as my kids wake, X hours travel, whatever delays in sign on and starting, the full race, the post race, the travel home. Even a close race by my standards is possibly 7 hours gone. Midweek I could drive a few hours after work to a race and arrive home at 1 in the morning but to my family, I have only missed 2 hours. That is the reason for me. To both me and those around me, I don't lose a day.

this.lad

It's not covered here but relevant when they are looking at the age profile:

Cycling is an horrifically expensive sport for children. I'm not sure if CI can address thus, but if there's not a pipeline of kids coming through it's going nowhere.

Maybe cycling has better retention rates than other sports but, even in GAA for boys, I'd say it's sub 50% post 16 years old. Looking at youth races, the fields are very small.

I would hazard a guess that most racing kids have racing parents or bike enthusiast parents at least. In clubs, to have a good youth structure, you're asking riders to sacrifice their own riding to ride with someone else's kids, that's why most clubs have no youths in my view.

It's a separate but related problem.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122276226#Comment_122276226

Sundrive addressed this by buying in a load of bare bones track bikes you can rent for a fiver at each session. Not really practicable for road races but for off road races like Mondello or Corkagh it might be but you still need storage and transportation. Not sure how to overcome this. Maybe more TT style events for youths where they don't need drop bars and can ride whatever they want. Maybe a focus on other cycling sports like track, BMX etc where the entry cost is less and there are storage areas. This is a tough one but a pity they decided to exclude youth participation as that is the biggest issue in the long run for the sport but there are good things going on behind the scenes in that regard as far as I know.

Macy0161

They mention a tiered system but also missed why the ICVA is so popular. It is the actual properly tiered system, where riders are graded by the organisers and regraded as appropriate.

Rolling back after the open race at the weekend, we were discussing how us (several vets) would like to do more Open racing. To go back to your other point about family, the start times of a lot of open racing means the day is gone. Notwithstanding the A1/ A2 (and A2/A3 in some races), that is a big factor with a lot of my circle of vets anyway. With the IVCA, I'm home 1ish - and could be earlier if I just jumped in the vehicle and came straight home. And I've further travel than a lot of members.

I have had an open racing licence the last few years, but stuck with LC this year as I wasn't using it with all the late morning/ early afternoon race start times. I only did the club open race, and I can do that on LC.

dahat

Typical day for me racing in March /April especially is easily 6-8hrs all in so early start times for me are very much appreciated.

Do CI assist with the cost of a Sunday race?

Junior

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122277775#Comment_122277775

In my experience, no they don't. Now I haven't run an NRS Race, so maybe they do there.

dahat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122277903#Comment_122277903

The great reforms but hey we won't help with the on the day expenses, that needs to change in order to assist clubs who have or are considering removing their race day from the calendar due to rising costs.

mamax

CI reps should attend more races, walk around at talk to the riders, support crew, locals/volunteers etc and get a feel for how the race scene is evolving instead of silly surveys that don't ask the right questions.

It's like they haven't a clue how racing works!

Reality_Check1

+1 to earlier start times. I’ve been up at 5am to drive to races this year and it’s much better than leaving at 10am and not being home until after 6pm.

The Northern clubs seem to be better for this

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122278082#Comment_122278082

Did you look at the list of the members of the group? Lots of them active racers. One of them was racing on Sunday in Wicklow.

beggars_bush

Midweek leagues bring adult riders into open racing at A4 level and should be promoted more to get lads who have quit running or team sports to take up competitive cycling

For healthy racing numbers you need far more lads at the bottom of the pyramid than at the top.

Junior

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122278502#Comment_122278502

It was noticeable that underage racing was not looked at, even in terms of numbers via the age groups, and there was no detail I could see of how many Juniors become Seniors, and how long they stay around for..

zindicato

Underage racing for girls is dire, numbers are just really low once they hit U14's compared to the boys, I also have an issue with the girls moving up from U16 to juniors , If you're under 16 you can't race in the women's league but you can race with adult men in interclub leagues as part of the limit group.

I just find that logic weird as there isn't that much youth races going on and on most race days there is only less than 8 girls in that age group unless it's a multiday stage race then the numbers go up.

How can we promote the longevity of interest for this girls and prepare them for the next step going into juniors when they don't have enough races to go to

So most of the girls lose interest in road racing and just branch off to other kind of bike races like Xc or mtb or other sports

LeoD

My 12 year old was interested in racing so gave it a go recently. The experience was so off-putting that he has no interest in trying it again. He's hardly ridden his road bike since.

this.lad

What happened to him?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286564#Comment_122286564

LeoD

Was told 2 weeks beforehand that the gearing on his bike would be grand for this race but at sign-in we were told gearing was wrong and bike couldn't be used. After much faffing about trying to resolve this serious breach of CI/UCI rules (God forbid he may have got an advantage, despite being the only one using flats and runners, in his first ever race over one of the other 15 kids that showed up), he was given a spare bike but with tape around the some of the cassette sprockets and told not to use those gears but as he had never ridden this bike before and the race was about to begin, he wasn't used to it and I don't think he changed the gears once so was spinning like mad man trying to keep up. Meanwhile the winner of the race, with his skinsuit, fancy carbon machine and power metre soloed away from start to finish winning by a mile - a complete waste of his and everyone's else time participating if you ask me. Watched the u14 race afterwards and the same happened. Not sure what benefit anyone gets from any of it.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122288784#Comment_122288784

If you are near Wexford we are running a few "participation" events later in the summer, free entry, won't be kicking people out once the bike is rideable in Wexford town. CX might be fun for him as well as they let you ride whatever you want at that in the youth races and I found it very inclusive and welcoming from participants and the kids all seemed to love it. That type of BS is annoying, I get why rules are there but at underage and participation driving events, there has to be common sense to a degree. Sorry your kid had to listen to that BS.

2011abc

Have I just correctly read the results of the Junior men’s Irish road champs as having SIXTEEN finishers over a 108km race ???!!!I knew things were bad but I didn’t realise they were THAT bad !(28 started …)

dahat

Time limit issues plus a biggish crash early on out a good few on the back foot.

Also the top jnr riders are at a very high level last 2/3 years.

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122288784#Comment_122288784

Not defending the behaviour, but the iirc the gearing requirements are supposed to be to protect young riders (from pushing too hard a gear) rather than to prevent a competitive advantage. Still don't think it should've mattered that much in the circumstances.

zindicato

MY kids started the same way as yours old 2nd hand flat bars while racing kids in road bikes then moved on to islabikes then wiggins, they were barely able to keep up in the beginning, they were the slowest of the bunch, but slowly they improved once they got older they started road racing somedays they are OK some days they get pulled off road races as they got lapped by other kids on nicer bikes, but one thing that's different is that we continued with it, encouraged them, we kept going to Sunday training, races in Corkagh, ice cream spins sure there was lots of crying, frustration in the beginning for em as they felt inferior, intimidated by as you've said some fancypants kids on carbon bikes but cycling is a sport that you'll get results only with consistency in training and participating.

The gearing and roll outs also got me in the beginning.

I coached youth riders from our club when my kids were at U8s till U12 and I always mention to parents to temper their kids expectation when they first join training sessions or races to minimise frustrating them.

Just because he can go on a spin with you for 20 kms around where you live or in the park and he looks fast doesn't mean that he will be OK on his first road race or traing session

that boy who dropped everybody during your sons race had probably put hundreds of hours training and started training earlier than your son, sure he looked strong but trust me he himself got dropped lots of times too and there are other boys around the country that are stronger than him but all of them kids continue to race no matter what the result they get , you also missed some things that are good with the youth cycling community, it is the willingness of parents from different clubs to help each each pre, during or post race days.

In most races eveybody will cheer and encourage everybody on any race, the kids themselves make a lot of friends around the country , you'll see the last kids to finish and the strong kids hang out before and after races ,more often the kids get over their results quicker than the adults.

If you can encourage him again to cycle, join a club near you if they have a youth section.

Nearly 3 quarters of our club youths don't do road races at all they just like the training sessions and the leisure spins.

Some of them have branched out to mtb and cx races only

If you have any questions just ask as there are a few of us parents in here who have kids currently in clubs that are racing or who have previously raced.

eeeee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122288784#Comment_122288784

I get the gearing restriction, that's there to protect kids but it can be really expensive. Those cassettes are hard to get and pricey.

I don't get the point of races at any level bar u16. Especially national's. It should be fun - participation races as Cram said they do in Wexford till u16 and take it seriously then. There's research to support a lack of specialisation till then.

There's a big disparity in kit and training and it just doesn't look fun, and locks out a lot of kids who might enjoy a more fun day. I think a youth festival once a year after provincial, fun participation races is a better idea than nationals for kids. I find road cycling boring, I can't imagine how boring it would be for a 12 year old! CX, bmx, off road, track I think are better fits for kids for smiles to miles, and they're building savage skills at the same time.

If kids are into it that's great, and they can improve a lot over time as the other poster said, but it's a bit too serious at the moment the rr- ing imo

Macy0161

Still saying it could've been handled better, but they did try to sort out an alternative bike option so that they could allow them to start. Could've been a flat "no". Judging by the bikes I see children on MTB-ing, while it does seem more inclusive of abilities, it doesn't necessarily look a cheap entry. However, mine never really took to MTB at all, and always preferred the road (albeit never had any interest in racing).