Medical Cert for Firearms Certificate requested by AGS in Dublin

System

This discussion was created from comments split from: Future of Irish Gun Laws?.

2011

Maybe this thread isn’t the right place for this post and it deserves a thread of its own, I will let the mods decide. Anyway here goes:

I have a friend that lives in a particular area in Dublin (I’m happy to provide more details to the mods as I would like to protect my friend’s anonymity), he has a number of unrestricted firearms. The local firearms officer called him recently and informs him that in order to process his renewal he must provide the Gardai with a certificate from his GP stating that he is fit to possess firearms. When he queried this he was told that this was a new requirement that would be applied to all licensed firearms holders in his district at the direction of the superintendent.

I would question the legality of such a blanket requirement. I called the NARGC about this and was told that they had reports of this happening in another part of the country but when challenged the requirement was dropped.

I have a number of concerns about this. First of all I suspect that some GP’s may be unwilling to provide such a document on the basis that they simply don’t know the person in question. There was several periods in my life where I would not have seen my GP for years. Also there is a cost associated with this. Let’s not forget that license holders have already granted the Gardai access to their medical records!

I would be interested in what others think.

otmmyboy2

Mod- Definitely it's own thread 😉

Personal opinion, question the requirement with the FO first:
- Why is it being requested of all licence holders?
- Will that be the basis of a refusal if the request is not complied with?
- Why are AGS not doing their own enquiries(as the box on the form grants them leave to) with your GP?

This all just feels like yet another bright idea from a Super who is not looking at the end result.
Even if you were into your GP somewhat regularly(monthly, I don't know what regular visits to a doc would qualify as?) unless they are evaluating you psychologically every time(assuming they have the necessary training to do so beyond medical school), rather than treating you for the rash/flu/rusty nail lodged in your foot/etc you came in for, I don't see how this could assist their(AGS) decision making in any way… I mean what is the intended result here.

Maybe a CYA for the mental health aspect by the Super, but short sighted and extremely stupid to clog up GP surgeries(assuming you can get an appointment for this nonsense) for one, and for another the shooter's money, €50 for a piece of pointless paper.

Extremely well thought out plan of action as usual from AGS 🤣

17hmr1

I would imagine you'd find it hard for a doctor to sign off on any certificate that requires them to state you're fit to hold a firearms licence even if they thought you were.

Think about the absolute sh1te show for that doctor's reputation if someone who they signed a cert for did something wrong,it could destroy them.Could someone take a civil case against them if they were hurt by a firearms holder whom they said was ok to have said firearm.

The system whereby you are suitable from your past and future actions seems the most suitable even if there's always a chance of something bad happening but that is the case even with doctors cert.

freddieot

You'll probably get a letter saying there is no medical indication that the doctor had observed that might disqualify you from possessing a firearm. However, I'd be very surprised if any medical professional stated they felt you were fit to possess any firearm. More absolute nonsense from AGS.

Grizzly 45

Tell your friend to inform his FO/Super he already had stated permission to inquire of his GP on any medical queries as stated on the disclaimer of medical confidiality paragraph on the application and to use that and FO and stop exceeding his lawful authority on this with make up legislation .IOW if the Super wants info he can go get it from the GP and stop messing around.

.243

sounds like this is coming from a recent story in the uk,where a firearms holder had his guns confiscated,but wouldn’t be released back to him unless he could provide a letter from a phycologist which he can’t get,so he’s stuck in the middle

tonysopprano

Might be worth to reread this thread from 2012,

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2056535313/firearms-licensing-cases-before-the-high-court

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122208294#Comment_122208294

And if it is that Super is basing it off that idea,well then we are not in the UK ,so its irrelevant to the applicant, the Super can get any medical info he wants already under the legislation,its not up to us to provide it because he has staffing problems to pick up a phone or just wants to be a bollix about it.

Also, there has been a DC case about this already with the Super refusing licenses because he believed the applicant suffered PTSD from finding a workmate hanging in the work garage,and wouldn't release said licenses until he went to a chosen celeb psychologist[and anti gun] of the choice of the super. It didn't work out well for the super in court.Esp as these were restricted liscenses,but strangely he was ok in granting this possibly self harming or dangerous PTSD sufferer an unrestricted liscense .

Chiparus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122207450#Comment_122207450

It is not really signing off on a certificate, it is a letter stating :

"There is no medical reason why Joe Bloggs cannot own a firearm"

Same as a medical report for a driving license.

freddieot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122210993#Comment_122210993

It's not really the same though. When you get sign off for a driving license the doctor can easily determine your eyesight and physical capability, right there and then.

How can they state there is no medical reason you can't own a firearm. I don't believe anyone could provide that, even a psychiatrist, without extensive testing and evaluation, probably over multiple consultations.

Chiparus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122211092#Comment_122211092

I am a Doctor, I would.

Chiparus

We write reports all the time, fit to work , unfit to work, fit to drive etc, We can only do on the evidence;, history and examination , past medical history etc.

It is more difficult to tell if someone has intemperate habits, and generally it is not a medical diagnosis.

Generally those who "go postal" have no medical reason for doing so, they have some personality disorder, - just bad people.

tomtucker81

There's one thing being missed here and I feel it's a valid reason as to why the applicant is being asked to do this.

AGS have your consent to speak to your doctor about medical history. They can do this if they want, that's what we all signed and agreed to on our applications. For AGS to do this, they have to request a report from your GP. How much does a Doctors report cost AGS? Easily over €100. Way cheaper/cost efficient to ask you to get it and as such say, well, you want a licence, go get the doc cert. Plus they've ticked a box saying they have checked your medical history.

I was asked for one years ago when I was living in a different area, new to the area. My GP gave me a hurriedly written letter, no cost. Seemed annoyed that AGS were looking for it

garrettod

You'd have to wonder if there's been any sort of agreement reached between the Gardai and the Medical Profession on the format of these letters, turnaround times, costs etc.

You'd also be inclined to contact the various shooting representative bodies, incl. IFA Countryside and the NARGC, to see what their experience is, in relation to this.

While I think it important the everyone take a cooperative approach when asked for info., I also think that a uniform approach is equally important, so everyone is treated the same.

Finally, is there any medical history that the Gardai specifically needed to consider, in this case?

Grizzly 45

You'd have to wonder if there's been any sort of agreement reached between the Gardai and the Medical Profession on the format of these letters, turnaround times, costs etc

Nope As there is no mechanisms for it in legislation. The legislation simply states AGS are entitled to make quieries off your medical professionals on any matters that might concern aGS in granting a liscense. Nothing about you the applicant having to provide any such information, certs,notes etc. Asking for such is exceeding the Supers lawful authority in this matter and basically should be mentioned to them that its up to them to make such inquiries under the law,as you have given them full permission to do so.

While I think it is important the everyone takes a cooperative approach when asked for info., I also think that a uniform approach is equally important, so everyone is treated the same

Yeah , simple. Don't cooperate in giving AGs more power than they legally have in this issue. Give in on this they come back wanting something again that is outside the parameters of the legislation. We play by the rules as laid down in this game on both sides and not give them the freedom to quare the pitch as they see fit.

Chiparus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122212757#Comment_122212757

Garda reports are €243.60.

tomtucker81

ANd so by asking an applicant to get something off their GP, they've saved significant expense.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122213640#Comment_122213640

Sorry,I don't get this. Do you mean aGS has to pay 243.60 for a doctor's report? Or that when aGS write up a report on something for civvies they charge the above fee?

Generally those who "go postal" have no medical reason for doing so, they have some personality disorder, - just bad peopl e

Just for an interest point on this check out the number of mass shooters who were on or off possibly,lithium-based meds in the US. Something like 85 to 90% were on medication that had Lithium in there somewhere. US doctors and psychologists seem to scatter these pills out to people over there like sweets at a party and stuff that we can only get over the counter as prescriptions in the EU , seemingly is freely available in any US pharmacists,or bought from Canada or Mexico. It would be really intresting to se what an EU medical professional would make of the medical cases of some of these mass shooters on diagonisis and treatments.

Chiparus

if I write a reports for the gardai, they pay me €243.60,

Chiparus

do you have a link to the lithium association?

Grizzly 45

Not giving you a short answer ,but just Google it .There are at least200 hits of various papers and websites of medical and psychiatric organisations on the topic pro and con opinions." Riatlin and Prozac use and mass shootings" or same phrase with lithium based meds

Chiparus

Severe psychosis is associated with less than 5% of mass shootings , and while there may be some association with depression, given it is a common disease I do not believe there is causative association.

https://www.columbiapsychiatry.org/news/mass-shootings-and-mental-illness

Nekarsulm

Local FO said that they needed a letter from my Doctor confirming I was a patient on his list.

Now, as it happens my Doc refuses to write such letters, but is happy to stamp the Firearms Application form with the Practice Stamp and sign it.

Which is what he did, (€5), and the FO accepted it without comment. (Cavan)

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122220668#Comment_122220668

…….. https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/06/ablechild-is-fbi-using-legacy-tokens-shield-mental/?

Chiparus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122260415#Comment_122260415

You are getting scientific information from the "Gulag Pundit"??

Seriously?

"AmericanGulag.org is a project of Jim Hoft for the benefit of the public and to provide sunshine and publicity to the scores of political prisoners wrongfully imprisoned as a result of the protest on January 6th."

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122275208#Comment_122275208

Yes, when MSM won't cover it, much like vax injuries and deaths, which have now been admitted and vax withdrawn from market, again only reported "those" sites and not by MSM

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122220668#Comment_122220668

Thought I'd drop this into here since it is relevant: https://www.gunfacts.info/blog/mental-health-and-homicides/