Project to setup Wi-Fi for mainly outdoor Gigs such as Croke Park and Electric picnic,

dubdvd

Hello all

I am looking for a bit of feedback regarding a project I'm about to start planning,

So the idea is that I will be helping a customer that has a fleet food vans and stalls at outdoor concert venues

The main hardware needed would have to have constant wireless network access as they are the payment terminals " Tap and pay"

These can work with either SIM or WIFI, but the customer has noticed that when the sim is enabled

There are areas were due to the saturation of 4G and 5G from concert goers live streaming, it isn't reliable,

So i am not going to look into this any further, as they have done gigs the length and breath of the country and this method is a no go,

So what they were doing up to this point was use a mixture of mobile phones in hotspot mode and the terminals connecting to these with the SIMs on and falling back to the Wi-Fi when the sim drops.

and in some cases using the Stadiums Wi-Fi has had its issues, as the Wi-Fi signal normally stops when you get to the sidelines of the pitch or just drops altogether once you walk on to the pitch,

The other sellers and vendors would normally do the same as the customer is doing, but i was looking at what i suggested down below and was looking for feedback from the guys here to see if you had any other suggestions or a better way of doing this.

As stated each month they could be at 3 different locations one week Croke Park and then we say Electric picnic and so on.

Here is the hardware setup below, that i was hoping to use, i have it set about the broadband and the mobile power, but it is the rest of it that I cant decide on.

I have to watch the budget, when it comes to the access points depending on how many I would need.

So all input welcome. The main budget is going to be spent on the Starlink and the Jackery mobile power unit, so I need to be mindful of cost when it comes to the access points. I would also need these access point to run over POE.

Hardware setup:

Broadband:

https://www.starlink.com/orders/?processorToken=b4c326e3-7493-442d-8092-d949ea4d3aea Starlink for broadband using their mobility plan which works out at 250 a month and the dish would be around 500 euros.

Power: if none is alliable on site:

https://www.jackery.com/products/explorer-3000-pro-portable-power-station price for this is around 2500 euros

Network: I have a switch there if needed but the main thing i cant decide on would be these below which one would be best and remember its not about download speed, Its more about stability as the payment terminals don't use much bandwidth.

1: https://store.ui.com/us/en/products/nsm2

2: https://www.senetic.ie/product/UAP-AC-M-5?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw8diwBhAbEiwA7i_sJVS2vv0d39V3AuZKBHSkokF6ywB_E8m0WjbP65wyc8I7-GVK_QF9aRoCr8gQAvD_BwE

3 : https://www.tp-link.com/uk/business-networking/outdoor-radio/cpe510/

if anyone has any other ideas that may work better please let me know

Thanks Dan

ItHurtsWhenIP

I think Starlink is a bit cheaper than you're making out. This is residential (you'll need the Ethernet adapter):

And this is the business package:

dubdvd

Hello and thanks for your reply, The customer came to me with this business plan and these where the prices that came up on the site for the business address I put in.so if you know a way of getting the same hardware or plan cheaper please let me know as personally I have never dealt with starlink.

So do you have any input into the project that I have asked for peoples veiw on and any ideas ?? Thanks Dan

KildareP

To be honest, you're dealing with a high density deployment and these are incredibly difficult to plan for and manage. If this is a sort of an informal helping-a-mate job then that's one thing but if you're bidding for a formal contract where they want a rock solid setup then I'd maybe look at directing them at someone who specialises in this. If nothing else, to save your own stress levels and sanity!

In general though:

First, your WiFi is going to be competing with the venues own WiFi system, with fellow food and retail vans, attendees with their own WiFi hotspots, in some cases radio mics, bluetooth, etc. You will have no idea from venue to venue, or even minute to minute, what is going to be competing with it. If at all possible, I would hard wire the payment terminals.

If that isn't possible, then you will need a WiFi point in each van which is hardwired back to your router. Don't even attempt mesh or repeater systems as they will not work reliably in a high density setup. Keep the channel widths at 20MHz for both 2.4GHz and 5GHz bands and keep the power levels down low (despite how counter-intuitive that sounds).

Second, if you're in the likes of Croke Park stadium then Starlink may not have a sufficiently unobstructed view of the sky to function reliably (or at all). You will need a backup solution - the positive is that stadiums tend to be have their own distributed antenna systems that the mobile operators link into. If 4G mobiles work in hotspot then 4G data SIMs should work equally well (a lot of the SIMs built into card terminals tend to be 2G or 3G only hence the contention in busy environments).

Finally - you need to be looking at the AC-PRO or Ux-PRO line of Ubiquiti if that's where you're headed. I can tell from hard learned experience that the AC-Lite and AC-M just don't have the horsepower to cope in very high density deployments like this and will fall apart when put under pressure (and that is of course reflected in their much lower price than the PRO).

dubdvd

@KildareP Thanks for your reply its is very helpful,

So i cant go into to much detail here, But i recently started working for the customer , so its not an informal helping-a-mate job, They have being doing these concerts and venues for the past couple of years and you hit the nail on the head regarding this " If 4G mobiles work in hotspot then 4G data SIMs should work equally well (a lot of the SIMs built into card terminals tend to be 2G or 3G only hence the contention in busy environments)." due to congestion on 4G they were able to drop down and use 2G and 3G which seems to work better, but its not perfect hence they are looking for something a bit more stable as they are normally using between 120 to 150 terminals at most venues, So this would cover food vans and vendors in the outlying area and the merchants on the pitch and this is where the main issue is, because in the likes of Croke park their are 3 ISPs that pipe feed their lines into the stadium, but the Wi-Fi provided is not stable enough to keep all the terminals failing to make payments, due to the other services onsite and concert goers using it, and the way the Wi-Fi is distributed there, the signal doesn't reach the pitch area itself, It can be picked up right up to the sidelines but not fully out on the pitch itself.

"First, your WiFi is going to be competing with the venues own WiFi system "If that isn't possible, then you will need a WiFi point in each van which is hardwired back to your router. Don't even attempt mesh or repeater systems as they will not work reliably in a high density setup. Keep the channel widths at 20MHz for both 2.4GHz and 5GHz bands and keep the power levels down low (despite how counter-intuitive that sounds)."

I am new with this company so i haven't been at one of these venues or events yet to see what way their current setup is. but I take it that what information has been passed onto me is correct, if not please feel free to give your opinion , the reason i put out here is just to get some feedback on what they are looking into, As it is not something I've setup before in such a large area and something so congested,

They have access to all areas at each venue, So gaining access to an area were we have a clean line of sight is not an issue as far as the Starlink dish is concerned. This is only something that is been talked out in general terms at the moment hence why i am looking for so feedback, and they feel that Starlink would be a congestion free source, and from there a POE switch and then the mesh or access points are for mainly feeding the vendors on the pitch area firstly and the others on the outlining area,

If you have any ideas at all i would love to hear them,

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122004231#Comment_122004231

OK, wow 100+ terminals, this is a serious undertaking and you need to get someone in who specialises in setups such as these - up to an including getting the actual equipment vendors involved. The likes of Croke Park, Convention Centre, Bord Gais Theatre, etc. will have chosen partners who can advise you on everything related to A/V, connectivity, cabling, etc. and you would be best advised getting in touch with one of these.

This isn't a "how much can you save using the cheapest solution" but "how much do you stand to lose if 100+ terminals all can't take payment during peak trade".

The mobile networks build capacity in for major events at significant cost, while venues usually invest equally large amounts of money into high capacity WiFi networks. If both of these are still struggling to maintain reliability for your needs then a couple of Ubiquiti or TPLink points strung together off a Starlink is most certainly not going to perform any better.

Long story short - this is not something you can DIY and expect long term success.

dubdvd

I have emailed this guy here to see what way he setup for the Darts in the UK and hopefully see what issues he ran into, He was dealing with a much smaller amount of terminals but the feedback maybe good to get a feel for it. I am running trials at the moment with up to 50 terminals using the Unifi Loco M2s,

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/kev-smith-payments_its-a-bullseye-pdc-premier-darts-activity-7169077063440650240-DU_C/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop

dubdvd

Hello all

Plans for this have now been shelved, we had run some tests using the unifi Loco M2 but only in a open car par area the signal strength range was a lot better than we thought it would be where there was line of sight, and the terminals worked great but when we were within 10 feet of the office buildings to one side of us the signal diminished a lot dropping to 1mb 5 feet to the other side brought it up to 30mb, but after reviewing some of the comments from kildareP and discussing this with the owner of the company we will be sticking with the setup that's been used over the pass couple of years, as in using the Sims in the terminals and then using about 20 or so 4 and 5G phones on hotspot to cover the areas were the signals drop on the terminals, this means a lot more staff being deployed, which is not ideal,

But if anyone has any suggestions they would be more than welcome.

TThanks again for the input

DopeTech

ask keysim.co.uk for a trial.