UK ban on batteries in attics

GarlicBed

Do you think we'll follow suit here?

Personally I think its madness having them in attics.
Even outdoors is very restrictive .
Rumblings of insurance companies getting itchy about them (and inverters) in attics too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHZqAGpDwxo&ab_channel=eFIXX

Calahonda52

We will probably wait until we have a disaster.

Was in Germany recently and a newly installed one went on fire in a garage, loss included a 200k camper van

10-10-20

I posted that over here too and much of the focus has been around the fire hazard differences between LiFePO4 vs Li-Ion.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966325#Comment_121966325

The fact of the matter is not necessarily the battery technology but the very existence of a high-energy appliance carrying high DC currents from solar panels and battery systems, with almost no arc protection on the DC side (except for one manufacturer so far that I know of) and zero fire/smoke detection in the zone, commonly mounted onto wood supports (see the thumbnail on that youtube video as an example) and all concentrating within a structural component made of wood.

I had an uncle who wouldn't even charge a 12v battery within the hay-shed, a similar analogy applies here too - it's a risk which should be mitigated where possible.

allinthehead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121968532#Comment_121968532

Sunsynk have arc fault detection. FYI

allinthehead

DC isolators are causing the majority of fires as far as I can tell. Eddi's installed in a hot press are also a significant risk, much more so than batteries.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121968616#Comment_121968616

Huawei do too on some models, but that's not going to detect an overheating or melting DC connector.

allinthehead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121968641#Comment_121968641

I know, you said you know of one manufacturer that had Arc fault detection and I knew it was Huawei you were referring to.

Aph2016

Mine was installed in the attic almost 2 weeks ago, great…

GreeBo

tbf if one of these goes on fire anywhere even near your house you are probably in trouble.

At least have smoke alarm in your attic (which you should have anyway!)

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969086#Comment_121969086

It's not recommended to install a smoke alarm in the attic. Temperature swings and humidity can damage them. There is no requirement either.

I think this was bound to happen sooner or later. These batteries should be put in an insulated and fireproof enclosure outside the house, with some form of AC to keep the extremes of weather off them.

Your home is your most valuable possession, and a failure in the cells, the electronics, or the installation could be catastrophic.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969074#Comment_121969074

The Irish code of practice (p6, sect 4.5 and 4.5.2) still allows the installation into a suitable surface within a roof space:

https://www.seai.ie/publications/SPV-Code-of-Practice.pdf

It's not going to change for a while anyway.

If it's mounted on fire-resistant panels and the cabling is protected from being in contact with wooden surfaces then you can do what GreeBo suggested and extend the interlinked fire alarm into the attic as a mitigation strategy.

Some inverters also feature a loop circuit which can be attached to a safety system - I can't recall the name of it just now, but it allows you to rapidly disable the inverter either through a fire alarm circuit. I'll dig it out…

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969086#Comment_121969086

Well there is a very considerable exothermic behavioral distinction between LiFePO4 vs Li-Ion - you shouldn't tar LiFePO4 with the same brush.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969132#Comment_121969132

I think that depends on the type, optical or heat detectors shouldnt be affected (and there are ones rated for Attic/Garage spaces)

I would rather have one than not, and in fact my M&E consultatant recommends them also

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969197#Comment_121969197

Agreed, but there are still Li-Ion batteries for sale for this purpose.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969562#Comment_121969562

Is there though? Would love to know what ones are.

The only non LFP was the Tesla power wall, which I think now has moved to LFP.

And they weren't installed in livable spaces, so garage or outside.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969552#Comment_121969552

You're right, but if it's not required there will be plenty who don't have it, and won't install it, especially on older builds.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969610#Comment_121969610

That was kinda my original point, if a Li-Ion battery goes on fire anywhere near your property you are in trouble, even if its in the garage or on an outside wall, I reckon the house is toast.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969616#Comment_121969616

I think, based on the likelihood of more and more houses getting batteries, the regs probably need updating in this area.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970056#Comment_121970056

Yep, I think we'll see batteries getting banned from attics.
It's extra work sure, but all it takes is one fire and anyone with an attic battery will get loaded on their house insurance.

RetroEncabulator

Given the huge temperatures in my attic, no way I'd have anything like that installed in it.

I wonder if the solution might be a boiler house type setup like we used to do for oil fired central heating?

Seems logical enough to have these in a little outbuilding with ducted accessing for cabling. Can't be that hard to do.

Worst case scenario if the battery packs go up, you lose a small shed.

It would make sense to have houses designed with ducting running from the roof to a utility area where this could all be installed very safely and with adequate space.

GreeBo

I think if you are doing it for safety reasons, then you dont want it anywhere near the house, which would be a problem & additional expense for many people.

SD_DRACULA

Personally I think it's a no brainer and I will sleep better at night once my batteries are in the shed, lifepo4 is safe sure but nothing is perfect

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970048#Comment_121970048

But my point is, theres no solar batteries that are li-ion. The power wall was never certified for Ireland. They are all LFP.

SodiumCooled

The company I’ve gone with suggested installing the battery and invertor in the attic but I was against that - didn’t like the idea of it hidden away. In the end we decided install in the upstairs hot press (for want of a better name - it’s got the UFH manifold in there and will be for storing clothes after washing, towels and bits like that).

As much space as I have downstairs we couldn’t find a good space for a 10kwh battery with attached invertor. Garage would have been ideal but I had floors in and all cable runs done before the solar was even discussed so can’t run any more cables out there.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972256#Comment_121972256

Plant room ;)

GarlicBed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972256#Comment_121972256

There was a fire in Ireland caused by someone decking out a plant room like hot press and stacking clothes against an Inverter.

slave1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970048#Comment_121970048

What concerns have you for LFP? These are the batteries widespread these days, continuing to say Li-Ion is muddling the water…

LFP are fine for in/around a house

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121968632#Comment_121968632

That's why DC isolators on both the battery and solar side are not being recommended by certain organisations in the UK either. It's just another junction to go wrong. Again from eFixx:

https://electricalnews.efixx.co.uk/1978879/14269857

I suspect much of this will transfer over to here in time.

SharkMX

Has there ever been a fire on a solar battery in Ireland where they were installed in the attic?

Installer says that there hasnt and that as long as you install it properly and dont put things near it then its ok. Said the dryer in the utility room was far more likely to ever catch fire than the battery and inverter in the attic.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121973174#Comment_121973174

Nah they love the fireman switches here, thats an isolator 😂

tommythecat

This all has me quite concerned. We have the inverter and battery under the eaves in a converted attic. Just installed in January. There is plenty of space around them etc but is this really a serious risk? I don't really have anywhere to move the battery. I would probably have to just get rid of it. Is the inverter also a fire risk?

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121973224#Comment_121973224

Yep, fair point.