What happens if named tenant dies, but there is another that is sub-letting from him.

ballyharpat

I have a tenant that is poorly at the moment. He shares the house with another person, when I agreed he could 'sublet' to. This second person has a serious drink problem and can be volatile, so I told them I did not want him on the lease or to have him as a tenant.

I told my 'Tenant', that if he wanted him to stay there, that was his responsibility, but I am having no dealings with him, I just want to deal with the tenant on the lease.

I was verbally abused and threatened at one point when I was doing a check on the property, I told them if it happened again, I would be getting the guards to arrest him and have him thrown off the property, I have video footage kept of the incident.

in the event that the tenant on the lease passes, can I terminate the lease and have the other person living there move out.

From my understanding, I can give 30 days notice to the 'main tenants' executor, and then take over the property.

Of course this is a very sensitive subject, I will/would be very careful and gentle during the process, but at the same time, I would want to make sure that I am covered with as little distress as possible to his relatives and minimize any loss I may incur.

ted1

After 6 months of been a licences he can ask to become a tenant , how long has ie been there ?

he would be liable for the whole rent

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121802661#Comment_121802661

He can ask, but I don't think it's automatic.

Given the instance of ASB he should be refused.

Are they getting HAP?

Dav010

Op, subletting is where the tenant leaves the property altogether and sublets their fixed term lease to another person, in that case the tenant who has left assumes the role of the landlord. That has not happened in your case.

There seems to be a licensee agreement between your head tenant and the other person in the property. As above, after 6 months the licensee can apply for tenancy rights, and though you can refuse it, there has to be a reasonable cause. Either way, you are now in a bind unfortunately as if you serve notice, they can initiate a dispute with the RTB.

Best thing for you to do is get your tenant to serve notice on the other person, and get him out.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121802661#Comment_121802661

He is not a licencee, he is a sub-tenant. His lease is parasitic on the head tenants lease. The head tenancy ends with the death of the tenant and the sub tenancy automatically ends at the same time. the sub tenant becomes a trespasser as soon as he is asked to leave following the death of the head tenant.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121803972#Comment_121803972

Where in Irish law is he a sub tenant?

he is there by invite of the tenant , he is a licence. His relationship is with the tenant

https://ipoa.ie/difference-between-subletting-an-assignment-and-a-licensee/

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121804011#Comment_121804011

The Tenancis Act makes extensive reference to sub tenants.

He came in as a sub-tenant according to the O/P,, not a licencee. A sub tenant has tenancy rights against the head tenant, A licencee does not.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121804031#Comment_121804031

Am I a tenant? - Threshold Any reference to that because the RTB, Treshold an IOPA have nothing on it..

ballyharpat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121803092#Comment_121803092

No I would definitely be refusing, I would not want him liable for the whole rent- I don't mind losing some money in a worst case scenario where the 'main' tenant can no longer pay, but I do not want him as a leaseholder-he cannot communicate in a responsible way, I would just be looking at one problem after another.

No , not getting HAP, they are both working and paying rent.

Claw Hammer

https://revisedacts.lawreform.ie/eli/2004/act/27/front/revised/en/html

Do a search for sub-tenant.

ballyharpat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121804110#Comment_121804110

Thank you, that seems to be applicable, but a lot of the 'jargon' is over my head.

I was hoping that he would have remained a licencee to the tenant, as he wanted to be put on the lease, I refused under the grounds of the 'anti-social behaviour'

Cuddlesworth

Pretty sure that because the OP acknowledged his presence and agreed to it, he could win a RTB case for tenancy if he had evidence of this.

That being said, if he's a raging violent alcoholic pretty sure you can assume he does not have his ducks in a row.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121804110#Comment_121804110

This would appear to confirm that the other occupant can indeed become a tenant,

https://revisedacts.lawreform.ie/eli/2004/act/27/section/50/revised/en/html

This bit also indicates that the death of the tenant does not affect other occupants rights.

https://revisedacts.lawreform.ie/eli/2004/act/27/section/52/revised/en/html

Would you please link to the section which distinguishes between a sub tenant and a licensee in the op’s case. Thanks

DFB-D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121804197#Comment_121804197

There are terms preventing sub tenancies being created without your permission in the residential tenancies act.

That is basically it, so unless you give permission for a sub let and the original tenant moves out, or the person requests to become a tenant which you do not refuse, the RTA tenancies protections do not apply to the person.

One thing you will have to watch out for in my opinion, the person will clearly be in possession of the property, even as a non tenant, what will it take to get them out?

So whatever the after tax cost is of a brief solicitors appointment would be well spent to answer this professionally for yourself.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121804969#Comment_121804969

You missed the bit in the opening post where the op did agree to sublet ( wrong term as the tenant still lives there, so it’s a licensee arrangement)

I also linked above the new legislation where the LL/OP may not unreasonably refuse the request if the other occupant is there 6 months. If the OP does, it’s off to the RTB the occupant goes. (It’s section 8 by the way).

The path of least resistance would be to have the tenant evict the undesirable, hope that he doesn’t know his rights, and as the op doesn’t mind taking a lower rent, just allow the tenant to see out his days in piece.

DFB-D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121805053#Comment_121805053

I didn't actually miss it, I said unless permission for a sublet and the original tenant moves out, there is no RTA protections for the person.

That's S32 btw.

S50(8) is not new, it is essentially the same as in 2004. But i would think threatening the LL is a reasonable basis to refuse.

Yes if the tenant did evict the licensee, there would be no issue for the LL on any case.

SharkMX

I know a couple of people who were landlords. They said the golden rule was never ever to acknowledge to a tenant, in any way that can be recorded, that you give them permission to move someone else into the property. If anyone asks just say no. If they do it without your permission you might ignore it on the basis you offially dont know about it, but you dont acknowledge it ever.

Probably no harm to state in the lease that there is to be no subletting and no licensees and noone else but those named on the lease ever to move into the property without explicit permission in writing from the owner.

I think the OP has given permission and it was probably in text messages or emails, so there could be trouble here.

There are all too many booby traps waiting for landlords these days. Its no wonder they are getting fewer.

Dav010

Denial of rights is not the same as not having any. If the licensee registers the letter requesting tenancy, or hands it to the LL, then the LL cannot unreasonably refuse. Failing to acknowledge receipt of the request would seem unreasonable to most. Also, a tenant can assign their interest in a tenancy, so the LL cannot reasonably restrict the tenancy to only those named on the original agreement.

SharkMX

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121805966#Comment_121805966

Then if they went through that trouble couldnt the landord just send back the lease with the relevant parts highlighted. Basically saying this property was rented to the lease holder only and they do not have permission to have anyone else living in the property.

Seems unreasonable to me to expect a landlord to ok someone he doesnt know and hasnt vetted himself and doesnt want living in his property in the first place. Otherwise whats the point in vetting tenants in the first place.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121804355#Comment_121804355

You are referring to co-tenants, not sub-tenants.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121804248#Comment_121804248

The o/p has to consent to a sub-tenancy. A sub tenant and a licencee are not the same thing. The sub tenant has rights against the head tenant.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121805053#Comment_121805053

The original head tenant can sublet the entire and then live there as s license of the sub-tenant, which is what seemed to have happened.

Claw Hammer

Even if the occupant had come in as a licencee he would have had to have sought a tenancy under Section 50 of the Act after 6 months. If he doesn't do so before the tenancy ends, it will be too late.

ballyharpat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121806551#Comment_121806551

Just reading through all this again, I wrote the heading wrong, I thought that he had a sub-let, but I believe it is a Licencee, I agreed to nothing, I refused him, when he asked to put his name on the lease, at that point, I gave them both the option to move out and told the 'head tenant' that if I had any problems from him again, I would be evicting and that I was keeping the video footage of him verbally abusing me. I'm hoping it will all be ok, but as someone above said, it is really a minefield being a landlord these days.

They are getting the house for about 25% below market rate, they have been in there 7 years. The main tenant is a nice guy, pays the rent, rings if something's wrong, lets me check the property and make a few improvements. I'm raising the rent now at every opportunity, but it will be a long time before it comes even close to market rate as it's in an RPZ.

The Ging and I

Get legal advice !

mrslancaster

Does this section not say that the part 4 tenancy finishes if the tenant dies, unless another person resident is a multiple tenant or one of certain categories listed who wants to become a tenant when the tenant dies. From the info in the OP's post, it doesn't look like the second person living in the house is any of those categories and a licensee is not a multiple tenant.

Termination on tenant’s death.

39.—(1) Subject to subsections (2) F114[, (4) and (6)], a Part 4 tenancy shall terminate on the death of the tenant.

(2) Where the 2 conditions specified in subsection (3) are satisfied—

(a) subsection (1) does not apply, and

(b) the Part 4 tenancy concerned, accordingly, continues in being, subject to the other provisions of this Chapter, for the period for which it would otherwise have continued in being had the tenant concerned not died.

(3) Those conditions are—

(a) the dwelling, at the time of the death of the tenant concerned, was occupied by—

(i) a spouse F115[or civil partner within the meaning of the Civil Partnership and Certain Rights and Obligations of Cohabitants Act 2010] of the tenant,

(ii) a person who was not a spouse of the tenant but who F116[was the tenant’s cohabitant within the meaning of section 172 of the Civil Partnership and Certain Rights and Obligations of Cohabitants Act 2010 and lived with the tenant] in the dwelling for a period of at least 6 months ending on the date of the tenant’s death,

(iii) a child, stepchild or foster child of the tenant, or a person adopted by the tenant under the Adoption Acts 1952 to 1998, being in each case aged 18 years or more, or

(iv) a parent of the tenant,

and

(b) one or more than one of the foregoing persons elects in writing to become a tenant or tenants of the dwelling.

(4) This section is subject to Chapter 6; without limiting the generality of this subsection, subsections (2) and (3) are not to be read as derogating from the operation of Chapter 6 in circumstances where a person referred to in subsection (3) is a multiple tenant (within the meaning of that Chapter) of the dwelling concerned.

(5) Irrespective of the number of instances of the application to the same dwelling of subsection (2) (by reason of a series of deaths of tenants), the Part 4 tenancy concerned shall not continue in being any longer than it would otherwise have continued in being had the first of those deaths not occurred.

ballyharpat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121827125#Comment_121827125

That's interesting, but is it only applicable in council/state housing?

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121827613#Comment_121827613

Part of the RTA so applies to private rentals. No idea how it would work in practice to regain possession from a non-tenant if the registered tenant had passed. How poorly is your tenant - are they still living in the property? Maybe their health will improve. Its a very difficult situation all round.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121805943#Comment_121805943

Agree sharkmx, there are lots of traps for landlords. NAL myself but work with some and so many have left the market because of the constant rule changes. Unless someone is running a residential rental business and has on-tap legal resources, it's pretty difficult to keep up with all the changes.

The latest bill is from SF's Mairead Farrell and Eoin O'B who want to include all licencees in the remit of the RTB. It looks like anyone taking in a licensee or doing rent-a-room would have to deal with the rtb as well as revenue. Lots of people are happy to let a spare room and include a few extra lines on a tax return, but complying with all the obligations of the RTA would be a different thing entirely.

I'd say the number of people offering digs for students or rooms to rent would plummet if this bill was passed.

Can't see how anyone thinks it's a good idea to impose extra red tape on anyone renting rooms during a housing crisis 😩😩.

MF yesterday:

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2024-02-27/8/

Their bill for licencees:

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2024/8/?tab=bill-text

SharkMX

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121827990#Comment_121827990

I think 99% of the current rent a room tenants would be getting their marching orders at even a hint of that coming. And as preventive measure im sure all home owners would be issuing notice as soon as it was talked about just in case they got stuck like all the landlords did years ago. Who wants someone in their house living with them that they cant lay down the rules to or boot out should they become difficult to love with.

I could imagine cases where you let someone rent a room in your house. They turn out to be total scum and make life for you impossible and then you have to move out of your own house while the room renter gets to keep it for however many years it takes going through the rtb and courts to remove them.

Can you just imagine the magnitudes worse that the homeless crisis would get.