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Landlord Tenant RTB

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  • 17-01-2024 9:31pm
    #1
    advisemerite
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭


    Hi all,

    I'm a landlord that has had a tenancy go horribly wrong.

    My tenant stopped paying rent first in parts then in full. After many RTB cases, I was granted two determination orders for rent arrears and possession of property.


    The court date is next week. Will I be granted possession on that date or is there a chance my tenant could get the case put back to a new date or any way they could stall the case.


    I'm receiving no rent since February 2023.


    Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.



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    #2
    MakersMark
    Registered Users Posts: 613 ✭✭✭MakersMark


    Do you mean an appearance in a District Court?


    If judge rules in your favour, it doesn't mean the tenants are out the next day.

    If these deadbeats dig their heels in, you'll have to pay for bailiffs to throw them out.


    You could be looking at months more delay unfortunately.


    Tenants can also ask the judge to delay eviction.



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    #3
    advisemerite
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭advisemerite


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121631466#Comment_121631466

    Thanks for your reply. Do you mind me asking how could it be months. I have a two determination orders one for arrears and another stating that I must be given possession of the property which they have failed to do. That's the reason I am in the district court, for it to be enforced. I'm saddend now that I won't be given possession on the day. I thought the judge would just enforce the order. Thanks again.



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    #4
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Maybe ask a solicitor but is there anything stopping you from changing the locks while they’re in court? Having a friend organise to meet the locksmith or whatever.

    not sure if it’s even legal but just an idea.

    edit: again, consult your solicitor, but citizens information seem to suggest you can anyway.

    IMG_0292.jpeg

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting-a-home/tenants-rights-and-responsibilities/if-your-landlord-wants-you-to-leave/#:~:text=Your%20landlord%20can%20go%20to,overholding%20on%20the%20RTB%20website.



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    #5
    JVince
    Registered Users Posts: 765 ✭✭✭JVince


    Judge will most likely rule in your favour. But will give tenants some time to move. Probably 4-6 weeks.

    If they don't obey the court it can be regarded as contempt and they could find themselves with a home in mountjoy.

    Judge will probably also make an order for arrears.



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    #6
    advisemerite
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭advisemerite


    Thanks for your reply. Tenants are claiming they are homeless and one has no income and the other very low income. I probably have no chance of getting anything significant in arrears is my thought. Do you know if they can appeal the judges decision or would that be contempt? I'm seeing a solicitor closer the date. But trying to get opinions closer to that.



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    #7
    advisemerite
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭advisemerite


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121631735#Comment_121631735

    I'm not sure I can change the locks even if i can the tenants are saying they don't have to attend court. I'm not sure if they do or don't.



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    #8
    DubCount
    Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭DubCount


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121632681#Comment_121632681

    Changing the locks is still an illegal eviction and could set you back months. Go through the process. Its likely the judgement will be in OPs favour but the tenants will likely get an extra few weeks grace period. An order for costs/arears is likely but pointless as you'll never be able to enforce it.



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    #9
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭1874


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121632681#Comment_121632681

    DONT change the locks whatever you do. That is the most idiotic idea ever suggested when you already appear to be winning, my only take on this is the person who advised this doesn't have a clue wtf they are talking about OR is actually anti-landlord and hoping to throw a spanner in the works for you,because it is just plain dumb, especially as they suggest themselves it may not be legal, it IS NOT and will land you in trouble and I'm sure the charter in many forums doesn't allow giving advice that is illegal. They cover themselves by suggesting it might not be legal, and point to Citizens advice and suggest you can change locks, which the information they provide says nothing of the sort.

    This is the problem with being a landlord, as much if not more than anything else is the inability to make people pay, pay arrears, pay for damage and then failing all that, to get them out. All the responsibility (and financial burden) is placed on the landlord while the system drags on and keeps someone in a rented property while the State/CCs fail to house people. Even if there are genuinely legitimate reasons imo if the State wants to permit people to stay in a property where they cannot or wont pay, then the State should then pay the rent by getting the tenants on HAP and possibly treat them as if they are bankrupt and make them a Ward of the State financially (whatever's involved in that) and appoint someone who deals with insolvency to deal with their finances.

    IMO, non payment that may last many months but more likely years, completely writes off the viability of renting out a property. There should be a laid down time limit and it should deal with different circumstances. IE non payment and a refusal to engage with the landlord or an appropriate body, fast track to eviction by month 3 and resolved or evicted by month 4. That gives the State ample time to deal with genuine problems and set up HAP

    Post edited by 1874 on


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    #10
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121632825#Comment_121632825

    No, the person (me) who suggested it is not an idiot or anti landlord.

    I also didn’t suggest it, I asked if it were legal and to check with their solicitor.

    It’s on citizens information as well, I suppose they’re idiots and/or anti landlord as well.



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    #11
    markw7
    Registered Users Posts: 349 ✭✭markw7


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121632918#Comment_121632918

    Citizens information that you linked to clearly state you can change the locks if renting a room in the landlords home (licensee).

    OP states it is a tenant and the RTB are involved so not a licensee, throw away the shovel as you are obviously wrong and very foolish for suggesting it in the first place.



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    #12
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭1874



    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121632918#Comment_121632918

    What you suggested has landed landlords who did that fines of 10s of thousands of Euros

    You did suggest it, its written in your post!

    The information you provided by CI says nothing about changing locks!



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    #13
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭1874


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121631735#Comment_121631735

    Maybe, MAYBE ask a solicitor, but is there anything stopping you changing the locks while the tenants are in Court, well aside from the law, maybe just suggest he sneak around while they are out at the shops? not as in the face of the law as doing it while they are in Court.

    IT is not on Citizens Information about changing locks, I didnt think so but I checked your link, can you highlight where CI says a landlord can change locks.

    It does say

    "If your landlord locks you out or physically evicts you, you may be able to apply for an injunction to force them to let you back into the property, or you may apply to the RTB to do so on your behalf."

    I take it back, calling your idiotic comments out like I did based on your ill informed interpretation just makes me look bad. I dont think it is nice to insult people, but your advice could land the OP or anyone who thought that was their only option with a very large fine and possibly worse, if you admit your advice is appalling and you don't know what you are talking about, I'll retract my comments, but so far you have denied you even gave this advice.

    OP Do NOT take this persons advice, you'll end up with a fine of 10s of thousands of euro

    Post edited by 1874 on


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    #14
    SharkMX
    Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭SharkMX


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633541#Comment_121633541

    How much were the fines exactly? Might be worth it from the stories i've heard.



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    #15
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭1874


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633736#Comment_121633736

    I don't agree with fnes, especially if a tenant is in breach themselves, or owes money, but the worst tenant is very likely to play such a situation to their advantage, not only not pay rent, arrears, for damage, but then get a nice payment and very likely be allowed back in the property to continue. I have read a few for around the 5-7k mark, but I recal reading for much more.

    https://www.rtb.ie/registration-and-compliance/ending-a-tenancy/how-a-landlord-can-end-a-tenancy

    Tenants can apply for Dispute Resolution with the RTB if their previous rented accommodation is now re-let and not offered back as outlined above. A landlord could face damages of up to €20,000 to a tenant for breaches of their obligations or depriving him/her of the rented property A determination could also be made that the tenant be allowed to resume possession of the property.


    https://www.independent.ie/videos/i-couldnt-go-home-to-say-goodbye-to-my-father-tenant-illegally-evicted-from-home-takes-court-action/a1099536288.html



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    #16
    SharkMX
    Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭SharkMX


    So not the tens of thousands you mentioned earlier then.

    That makes booting them out even better for someone who is losing the rent to a delinquent tenant.

    Has anyone ever been forced to let them back in? Especially someone who hasnt been paying rent for a year like the OP?



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    #17
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,536 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Its impossible to know what fines people paid etc. RTB seem to make it very hard to find and collate that information. I assume because they want people to follow the process. Perhaps the data would influence people to do certain things. Like leave the market even faster than they currently are.



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    #18
    advisemerite
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭advisemerite


    Thanks for all the comments so far. The case is Tomorrow. My tenant has stated he will not be attending the hearing for enforcement of the RTB determination order as he doesn't have to. I'm under the impression he's been summoned so has to attend and if he doesn't there'll be a bench warrant for him or am I mistaken?



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    #19
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,163 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704337#Comment_121704337

    He hasn't been summonsed. He has been notified of the hearing if he wants to make representations. . You will have to proved he was served . If he is not there the hearing will go ahead in his absence.



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    #20
    advisemerite
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭advisemerite


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704638#Comment_121704638

    Thank you for your reply. I thought he was summonsed but I understand now. Today is the Day. I hope it all goes well. He was served he accepted the documents but no signature was obtained by the processer. I think it might be tricky proving it then if needed be although the processer has said he will state he served them if needs be.

    So to sum it up, he has only been notified not summonsed and if he doesn't turn up there will be no bench warrant as its a civil case and the case will go ahead in his absence and he will be notified of the outcome.



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    #21
    JVince
    Registered Users Posts: 765 ✭✭✭JVince


    Exactly.

    Non appearance effectively means no defence entered and you win the case.


    It's a civil case, so no bench warrant or anything like that.

    He may send a solicitor and solicitor will claim illness or something like that. So if you have anything on text / WhatsApp, take a screenshot and print off 3 copies



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    #22
    airy fairy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭airy fairy


    Don't change the locks. Go by every rule in the book. Otherwise things will be delayed. You have to play good unfortunately.

    After 18 months fighting the same route you are on, my case went to district court. Tenant represented himself. Spun the sob sttory, how I could afford to keep him in my property. Judge was completely in my favour and ruled he had to be out of the property within 10 days.

    My solicitor had to get a barrister so there could be no delays on red tape. The tenant moved out within 10 days, unfortunately left months of refuge, dirt and destruction behind.

    If he had refused to move within the timeframe, the next action was an application to the county sheriff. Depending on where the property is depends on how long this can take. If this happens, the sheriff will set a date with you, and line up a locksmith and gardai to witness and keep the peace.

    Hooefully the tenant will comply.

    My experience was a few years back now, and cost approx €15k in arrears and repairs etc. Judge ruled that the tenant repay arrears, but expressed in court that I wouldn't see a euro as it's so common in this situation. Threshold attends a lot of these hearings, egging on tenants to overstay, even in the courtroom. So just be aware, your blood pressure will rise.



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    #23
    advisemerite
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭advisemerite


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121709312#Comment_121709312

    Thanks for your advice I'll keep you all updated.



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    #24
    advisemerite
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭advisemerite


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121709380#Comment_121709380

    Thanks for your detailed post. Here now waiting. Can the tenant appeal the ruling if he no shows? I don't think he'll comply so I think a sheriff will be needed. I'll keep the post updated. Your information is very helpful.



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    #25
    airy fairy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭airy fairy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121709837#Comment_121709837

    No I don't think he can appeal, especially if the judge sees you've done everything above board and it's putting you under financial pressure. I was asked about mortgage repayments, bills etc. The tenant will probably be given the time to leave, but I think if he's a no show, have your legal team prepared to start the sheriff route.

    Good luck



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    #26
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,271 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121709837#Comment_121709837

    best of luck with it.



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    #27
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,163 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    The tenant can still appeal even if he doesn't show up. The appeal is a fresh hearing so you will have to prove your case all over again.



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    #28
    ballyharpat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,768 ✭✭✭ballyharpat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121709837#Comment_121709837

    well, How did it go for you?



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    #29
    burtner
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭burtner


    Well, what was the outcome ?



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