The GOAT of Basketball

johnnyk29

The in season tournament has just ended over the weekend. Lebron won MVP and added another accomplishment to his CV. I always wondered how many posters on the BB forum view the GOAT debate and who their 🐐 is. Below is a poll with some of the options most consider to be the goat, please vote and comments welcome on choice and the goat debate

johnnyk29

Michael Jordan

Apologies I put Larry Bird twice not because I liked him so much as a player just a mistake!!

Corvo

Michael Jordan

As always, there is more nuance to these arguments but I'm taking Jordans peak over LeBrons longevity, but there would certainly be a much stronger argument if LeBron won another chip at 39/40 years of age at a high level

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

Michael Jordan

a fresh and new debate

Eoinbmw

Michael Jordan

I only watch NBA occasionally the last few years!

What stands out to me is how soft the game has become physically!

Also rules such as double dribble and travelling don't seem to exist.

For me MJ played in a way more physical era obviously LeBron is a specimen in himself but he has a soft wingy side that would not have gotten him anywhere in the 90s.

It's hard to look objectively at it two different eras and myself personally invested in the game as a teenager when Jordan was in his prime!

LuckyLloyd

Lebron James

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121485676#Comment_121485676

LeBron played his first two years before the hand checking rule was changed and in his second he was an all star with a litany of positive advanced stat metrics. If you want to tell yourself that arguably the greatest pure athlete we've ever seen in any sport - who enjoyed a distinct physical advantage over his opponents in his prime and has successfully played all 5 positions - is too "whiny" to dominate in a era where he couldn't be doubled off the ball, you can tell yourself that.

Look, boomers get very touch on the subject but it's LeBron. But for the boomers, even though it's LeBron, we're at a point where they can't deny the greatness of the totality of his career. So he now gets "best career", but MJ has the "peak". It's progress, I'll take it.

LeBron has another couple of decent years to add on as a still top 10 player at 39 (which is so ridiculous lol, and we have been directly comparing to MJ there last year and this year) and then his own documentary and then the boomers will start to die off, the landscape of analysts will change to where it predominantly is dominated by people of LeBron's era and we'll eventually end up where this debate has been inching towards literally since he was 16: where everyone just accepts him as the GOAT.

LuckyLloyd

Lebron James

The one thing I can say about this tired old conversation is that - as a LeBron fan - I know that someone better will come along. In my lifetime? Maybe, maybe not. But the MJ truthers mostly closed their minds off to the idea it could ever be someone else. That's what makes the debate so toxic. And it couldn't be a guy who entered the league straight after MJ exited. This is just human progress, and it's great. I can only hope I get to see a better player than LeBron with a better career. How incredible will that be?

Eoinbmw

Michael Jordan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494660#Comment_121494660

Ya you lost me at boomers!

LuckyLloyd

Lebron James

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494964#Comment_121494964

Ya lost me at soft

johnnyk29

Michael Jordan

In my opinion Lebron is an incredible player and so was Jordan, I would have always said Jordan was the goat but Lebron is a more rounded player in some ways. Ultimately it is a generation thing as LuckyLloyd said even though I would ask him how would you compare Jordan and Lebron as players to make your choice?

I think what he missed out on what the global and cultural impact Jordan had which I don't think Lebron will ever be able to match that aside from his social commentary which is much more ahead of Jordan in that regard.

Really what is the main criteria/factors you would use to differentiate who is better between the two is it stats/championships? Is it Lebron joining a super team in 2010? Is it Jordan not winning without Pippen?.... I really don't know but I think Jordan and Lebron will always be know as all time great players and always relevant....

LuckyLloyd

Lebron James

I mean the comparison between LeBron and MJ as players has always been very clear to me Johnny. LeBron finished a 7 game finals series leading both teams in points, assists, rebounds, steals and blocks. He has played all 5 positions. His all round impact, versatility and athleticism is obviously superior.

Of course, it’s not just about who would win in a 1 on 1, or who has the more versatile skill set. But if it was, the answer seems pretty obvious!

johnnyk29

Michael Jordan

Yes can't argue with alot of what you said there, I would be very conflicted on who to start a championship challenge with a NBA team.

A I think as you said Lebron is more all round so he can plug a few holes maybe that Michael couldn't and he is very adaptable to be 1 or 2 option.

johnnyk29

Michael Jordan

Also looking online especially twitter and other forums this debate is very toxic. You have Pro Jordan and Pro Lebron analysts on ESPN and Fox stirring the pot like Nick Wright and Skip Bayless.

It's important for both sides to recognise the greatness of both Lebron and Michael Jordan and not diminish their achievements just because the era they played in.

LuckyLloyd

Lebron James

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499842#Comment_121499842

Yeah it’s a completely toxic debate.

MJ is iconic, one of the greatest athletes to ever walk the earth. I think it is fair to note that he enjoyed a lot of stability and continuity during the prime of his career, as Chicago went all in around him. One of the greatest coaches ever, one of the great players of the era in Pippen and insane role players like Rodman who did specific aspects of the game as well as anyone in NBA history. But nonetheless, he elevated it all and was both extremely consistent on a night to night basis while having a “clutch” gene. His career was extraordinary and unparalleled at the time of his retirement.

I’m not here to pull MJ down. I just feel LeBron has put together the better body of work and the 2016 championship is unequalled in terms of an individual contribution from a single player, if we want to talk about “peak”.

Yeah LeBron has changed the nature of player contracts and control with the Decision, which was classless in its delivery. And his 2011 Finals performance was shambolic. But those elements, imo, add to his greatness. There is no perfection here, but he came back from that terrible low 18 month period to go on and deliver an unrivalled decade of insane play, clutch moments. Then he has kept going to break a record once thought unbreakable and perform at a level not considered possible in a 21st year in the league.

It’s a much more complex tapestry. Three franchises, so many coaches, multiple eras of play, so many complimentary stars, so many great opponents. There’s a lot to it and we have not yet began to get the type of high level content and adulation around it all. The percentages and perceptions will continue to shift.

johnnyk29

Michael Jordan

I have been watching alot of Lebron in camps from around 2001/2002 especially the ABCD camp it's actually fascinating to watch...Sonny Vaccaro of MJ sneaker fame is interviewed during the camp and says he could possibly be one of the greatest players ever...how right he was!!

https://youtu.be/yjO-3xs-AF0?si=h56Mh03VH5P7R4kY

Sonny starts talking around the 0.25 mark

LuckyLloyd

Lebron James

Well yeah the hype when LeBron entered the league had no precedent. His games as a high school player were televised nationally, on the cover of sports illustrated and tipped to be one of the greats from 16 on. That he exceeded the burden of pressure and expectation is a miracle. Particularly coming from a background that was less than ideal, shall we say.

And you know, people don’t like him. He can be passive aggressive and his outspoken nature on social issues will be naturally divisive. I get that. But he’s clearly a good lad, been with his missus since they were teenagers. No personal scandals, family man, gives generously to charity and is spoken of positively by an army of former teammates. The worst that can be said about him over a long career in a fishbowl is that he manipulated certain things, took the wrong stands. But who amongst us would be perfect?

And also, the work is clearly real. The dedication to his craft, the legendary early morning gym sessions, turning up to get loose hours before games as an older player, and immediately getting in ice baths, etc after games. Spending a million quid on his body a year. What he has achieved physically is hard to grasp. He’s clearly in a decline phase but the level of athleticism and versatility he still demonstrates at 39! It’s wild stuff.

And I know some people don’t like that either. It’s very one tone and obsessive. He’ll probably play another couple of years and the weight of his career output will be impossible to beat because it isn’t realistic for people to want to do this across a quarter century. That side of it is hard to connect with or wrap your head around, I get that too.

johnnyk29

Michael Jordan

The most impressive part from me about Lebron is the expectation he had and he surpassed that, to have that confidence and mindset is mind-blowing to me.

I have seen many wilt in alot of sports as the "next big thing", on covers of sports illustrated, high school games on TV i can't even imagine thr focus you would need to stay so good.

Carcharodon

Bill Russell

This old gem of a “debate”, hilarious how it always boils down to Jordan v LeBron, when people get so worked up about it, I think they need some self reflection, it really doesn’t matter.

can’t we just have our favorite players and recognize the best players of their generation.

From living in the Bay and being a Warriors fan, Curry is head and shoulders above anyone else as my favorite, he is clearly one of the best of his generation, I could argue he is the best of his generation due to how he changed the game, his titles, MVPs, staying on the same team, being an incredible teammate and role model but that doesn’t make him the best, just my favorite.

Everyone can provide solid arguments about who they think is the greatest but it’s a fool’s errand.

I think asking people who their most favorite player is a much more interesting discussion as Iam sure people will have some good choices of players we may have forgotten about.

ec18

Michael Jordan

I voted Jordan, purely because that's when I was keeping most up to date with the NBA. The whole GOAT argument is just a thing to be riled out when there's no other real news.

Really we should just appreciate greatness when we see it. be in Jordan, LeBron, Shaq etc appreciate and enjoy what we see.