How does this ruling impact our ability to deliver on commitments to refugees?

riddles

https://www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/2023/february/romanian-cant-be-refused-disability-allowance

How can the Irish taxation and social welfare system sustain the following:

• An unlimited number of inward migrants seeking international protection?
• An unlimited number of EU nationals moving here an immediately accessing social welfare and disability benefit's

This also comes with increased housing, policing. health and education commitments.

For the second part I am awaiting a response from the Minister for Social Welfare. You would think they could immediately refer to a designated set of criteria but it seems not to exist.

RobbieV

It can't. And for that Ireland is getting what it deserves. Only it is affecting the average man and woman but not those who make the decisions.

DangerMouse27

The article you posted does not lend itself to the hyperbole you included in your post.

*unlimited??

Nothing about that document you reference says unlimited.

Your perhaps, trolling? A fair question.

One eyed Jack

What ruling?

The opinion of an advocate general is not binding on the CJEU, whose judges will rule on the case at a later date.

riddles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121406421#Comment_121406421

Relative to our size both geographically and economically I think we can label the inwards migration potential as unlimited for both EU nationals and migrants requesting international protection. This will remain the case until there is a migration policy offering some level of cohesiveness.

I am asking for some transparency from the powers the be to the above questions and so far this hasn’t been forth coming.

DangerMouse27

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121406529#Comment_121406529

That's still not unlimited. Unlimited is unlimited.

I get what you are saying about policy but we are in the EU and a lot of our policy must at least mirror what's going on. ECJ for one.

lmimmfn

Another reason not to be in the EU, that ruling is absolutely stupid, let's let anyone move to this country and we are responsible for all their family who are not irish citizens and have to provide all social benefits including medical care, free travel, the list goes on.

I'm not anti EU but FFS this nonsense needs to stop.

minimary

Am I wrong to think its a no brainer to insist on a long term residency requirement for non contributory benefits?

Aka that someone can only access a non contributory pension/disability benefit if they have been a legal resident of Ireland for the preceeding 18 years or something

Peregrinus

As others have pointed out, this isn't a "ruling"; it's an opinion, which the court may or may not accept.

Also as others have pointed out, although the OP talks about "unlimited" numbers accessing benefits, the opinion doesn't.

And I'll point out that the OP also sticks in the bit about people moving here and "immediately" claiming benefits. The opinion doesn't say that either.

The claimant in this case first sought a benefit in 2017; she first came to Ireland in 2009. And she came on the basis that her daughter (who is an Irish citizen) was already living and working (and paying taxes) here.

EU FoM legislation does in fact address the case of an EU citizen who moves to another country and immediately claims benefits. In those circumstances you can not only be denied benefits, but also denied the right to free movement — i.e. you can be required to leave if you are unable to support yourself and instead become an "unreasonable burden" on the social assurance system of the host member state. This isn't a power which member states often exercise, precisely because the "unlimited" flood of benefit-seeking migrants that so preoccupies the OP has never eventuated in any member state, not even those whose benefits are conspicuously more generous than ours.

m2_browning

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121409597#Comment_121409597

Fairly sure this is based on UN disability stuff not EU

but keep ranting on

riddles

We are moving toward a tax payer ratio of 5 to 1 to 2 to 1 in about 20 years. In general the funding model for future pension provision is very questionable.

We currently have the highest number of 25-29 years old's living at home in the world.

However, approximately 30% of the housing waiting list comprises of foreign nationals.

Population growth in Ireland must be +25% in the past two decades.

• no increase in the provision of hospital beds Hospital beds in Ireland 2000-2020 | Statista
• No tangible increase in the Gardai numbers.
• Challenges with school places
• Challenges retaining teachers, nurses and Drs.
• Large scale house building in towns with zero employment

Irish debt burden among highest per capita in the world at €44,250 2023

So when I ask simple questions about the sustainability of our welfare system and ask questions about the oversight within the system, its against the back drop of the above challenges. And with the knowledge that the welfare system is one of our greatest privileges and should be protected right down to every cent

in 2022 we spent €24.6 billion Social Protection

I cant get information on the following:

how much of this is distributed to foreign nationals?

why we are paying social welfare to EU nationals beyond three months?.

why the welfare payment commitment to Ukrainian nationals is not reviewed and changed?

Why criminality and subsequent prosecution does not exclude people from future welfare until the cost of criminality is recouped?

• why is criminality and fraud not leading to foreign nationals being asked to leave the state?

What is Irelands position on the agenda of movement of people across the EU and associated provision of benefits?

What is Irelands position on shaping the agenda for inward migration into the EU?

When someone who comes here to seek international protection returns to the place they fled in terror on vacation, should this not automatically exit them for the range of benefits they are potentially availing of?

This isn't a power which member states often exercise, precisely because the "unlimited" flood of benefit-seeking migrants that so preoccupies the OP has never eventuated in any member state, not even those whose benefits are conspicuously more generous than ours.

This is surely a windup statement - secondly can you list all the states where "benefits are conspicuously more generous than ours."

The ineffective leadership here and right through the EU accompanied with short term political agendas means we don't get transparency on above challenges. This incompetence is in no way an excuse for profligacy.

Peregrinus

This is surely a windup statement - secondly can you list all the states where "benefits are conspicuously more generous than ours."

You want me to list all the states whose benefits are more generous than hours? Do your own homework.

Countries that pay higher benefits than Ireland are not difficult to find, but the answer does depend on what benefit you are interested in. If you want unemployment benefit, for instance, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and Switzerland all provide a more generous benefit that Ireland does. If it's disability benefits you're interested in, head to Switzerland or, if you can't get in there, pretty much any Scandinavian country, or France. Retirement pension? It's the Netherlands, followed by Denmark, Iceland, Finland, Norway.

in 2022 we spent €24.6 billion Social Protection

I cant get information on the following:

how much of this is distributed to foreign nationals?

Not easy to answer the question because nationality isn't a relevant factor in qualifying for benefit, so the data isn't collected. Also, lots of people have both Irish nationality and foreign nationality; how are you going to categorise them?

But it obviously makes no sense even to ask the question without also asking the question, how much of this is funded by foreign nationals paying tax and social insurance in Ireland? A back-of-the-envelope estimate suggests that foreign nationals are likely to pay a greater share of costs than they claim a share of benefits. Why? Because by far the largest component of social expenditure is retirement and old-age pensions, and foreign nationals make up a very small component of these claimants; we haven't had large-scale immigration for long enough for many foreign nationals to qualify for Irish retirement peneesions.

If you're proposing that we exclude foreign nationals from the social protection system, all other issues aside, that's likely to punch a big hole in the social protection budget. If your proposal isn't accompanied by proposals about how to fill that hole - which taxes are you raising? which programmes for Irish nationals are you cutting? - I'm afraid nobody's going to take it very seriously.

riddles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121415605#Comment_121415605

Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and Switzerland all provide a more generous benefit that Ireland does.

In the context of it being linked to a previous salary which in essence is the crux of the issue. How accessible our welfare system is compared to other jurisdictions and the oversight there in, such as registration - identity cards etc. Either way generic platitudes are great but they don’t add any value or progression towards resolving the real issue’s we have in the real world. It would be great if they did.

• The population rose by 97,600 in 2023 people which was the largest 12-month increase since 2008. Ukrainians made up 42k of the increase motivated to travel farthest west possibly because of rolling hills and great weather. Well over a year after their ambassador said Ireland has no accommodation for them. (42k costs over 1 billion to support bringing us to nearly 3bn a year on that segment alone this accumulation of spending is bank bailout spending territory).
• Add in a 500 m shortfall in corporation tax and you wonder is the increasing PRSI subscriptions future funding pensions or masking Migration based social protection spending.
• There were 1,338,700 people living in Ireland aged 45-64 in April 2023. This age grouping also had a rise in population share between 2017 and 2023, growing from 24.1% to 25.3% of the total, a volume increase of 180,800 people. 
• 
  

Again with a declining tax payer ratio - how can the Irish taxation and social welfare system sustain the following:

• An unlimited / unknown number of inward migrants seeking international protection?
• An unlimited / unknown number of EU nationals moving here an immediately accessing social welfare and disability benefit's

doc22

From reading the article she moved here in 2017 with arthritis and went straight to DA.

"GV joined her daughter in Ireland in 2017 and has legally resided here ever since. During the past 15 years, she has been financially dependent on AC.

Disability allowance

In 2017, GV suffered degenerative changes in her arthritis, after which she made an application for disability allowance under the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005."

If she lived in a different country how was she dependent on the daughter? And if it was only financially how/why should this be passed to the state, A JOKE f an opinion.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121415781#Comment_121415781

People in this thread have already pointed out that Ireland doesn't have to deal with "an unlimited/unknown number of inward migrants seeking international protection" or "an unlimited/unknown number of EU nationals moving here and immediatly accessing social welfare and disability benefits. Repeating your questions is of little benefit if you can't be arsed to engage with the replies you get. I'm not saying that you're a troll but, if you were trolling, it would look a lot like this.

hynesie08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121415825#Comment_121415825

Daughter was working and sending money home, but the arthritis got so bad the mother wasn't able to live independently anymore?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121415825#Comment_121415825

Ah, the perils of relying on media articles. If you follow the links, drill down and read the Advocate General's opinion, you'll see he states that the claimant first came to Ireland in 2009 (but she didnt' remain continuously between 2009 and 2017).

(And your own opinion, that the Advocate General's opinion is "a JOKE of an opinion", is kind of devalued if you haven't actually read the Advocate General's opinion. Just sayin'.)

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121415605#Comment_121415605

It's always a strange mixture of sadness and encouragement when you see threads set up where people post about stuff they haven't really thought about in any deep sense with entirely reactionary views designed to get reactionary agreement — only for there to be at least one contributor who will demonstrate a more nuanced, reasonable way of looking at things. I honestly don't know how some people on here sleep at night when every news article that has anything to do with migration or refugees sets them off down a mental rabbit hole of assumptions and fear-mongering.

riddles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121415892#Comment_121415892

Or people who post abstract nonsense not adding anything plus or minus to the original very real topics. Well done you.

Gatling

Wasn't there a case a few years ago where a lady from one of the Baltic states won a case where she was allowed to stay here so she could claim the state pension despite her never working here