Mark III coaches seating

supereurope

Apologies if this seems like a really geeky thing to be posting about, but I can't help my curiosity.

As a child growing up in Cork in the late 1980s, my family would take a trip to Dublin every January for the sales and the Lego show at Arnott's. The excitement of the train trip was almost as exciting as the Lego show to be honest. Anyway, I always remember the mark III coaches back then having airline-style seating, with a folding table at each seat, with half of them facing the direction of travel and half facing the "wrong way." There were four sets of four seats around a table in each coach as well. I also remember going to the dining car on one occasion, and there was orange plastic seating.

We stopped going to Dublin in the early 1990s and I went a few years without travelling on a train. By the time trips to Dublin restarted in the mid-1990s, the airline-style seating was gone and the coaches all had four seats around a table. The dining cars had changed too, with moquette seating.

Because I was young in the late 1980s, I just assumed Irish Rail reconfigured all the coaches, but later I started thinking that I was misremembering my trips from my childhood and the mark III coaches never had airline-style seating. Thankfully, I recently stumbled across these 1984 pictures of the then-new mark III coaches, which confirm that the coaches had airline-style seating originally (and plastic dining car seating.) Anyone know when and why Irish Rail reconfigured the coaches?

goingnowhere

Fairly early on the seating was changed in the standard class coaches back to the traditional layout based on customer feedback

The dinner cars plastic seating lasted a lot longer

Poxyshamrock

I never knew this. Thanks for sharing.

Vic_08

Even after they reconfigured them into bays of 4, each carriage had 2 rows of airline seats left at the ends.

The push-pull sets had mostly bays without tables from new, tables were later added to some of them that were moved from commuter to IC work.

RetroEncabulator

I'd guess when they were newly introduced in the 1980s they probably just followed the same layout as the 1980s British Rail Intercity 125 trains, and just found people preferred a 4-seat table layout instead.

I'd also suspect those airline style seats are a maintenance issue : folding tables, more surfaces to clean, tighter spaces, harder to hoover etc etc.

You have to remember the MK3 / Intercity 125 trains were designed to look more 'airline-like' on board to feel more futuristic. They'd used a lot of finishes that were a little more airline than train inspired to give it a modern vibe that was supposed to stand out from what had gone before.

They would have looked very slick and high tech compared to the MK2, Cravens and older stock here and similarly compared to older stock in Britain they were very futuristic.

There's some of them being introduced:

https://www.rte.ie/archives/collections/news/21249053-new-high-speed-train/

Some of the signalling explained - CAWS - complete with the pendulums that controlled it !!

https://www.rte.ie/archives/2022/1101/1332564-irish-rail-signalling-systems/

A brand I've never seen "Intercity Zero" which I think was an RTE special brand for a TV show?

supereurope

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539335#Comment_121539335

That all makes sense. It looks from that archive clip that first class always had a 4-seat table layout.

Not sure what "new high-speed trains" they're taking about though in the 1987 clip - the mark IIIs were introduced in 1984 and the locomotives in 1976. The only thing different for 1987 is CIE replaced by IR.

RetroEncabulator

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540336#Comment_121540336

I'd assume it was a relaunch of the service as they had enough MK3s to run it. I don't think they were delivered very quickly as they were assembled in Inchicore on a fairly small scale basis.

Seems the delivery was between about 1983 and 1989, so it's quite possible there were sets arriving in 1986-87.

I wasn't around then, but I'd have my doubts that CIE would have delivered them as quickly as Hyundai or CAF did. They'd have probably arrived in dribs and drabs onto the network.

Tippman24

The Mk3 coaches were introduced in the aftermath of the Cherryville accident when the Govt provided Irish Rail with the necessary funds to buy them. The enquiry into the accident showed that many of the deaths were caused due to the timber framed carriages involved were not robust in the accident. Some of the Mk3s were bought direct from the British Rail works in Derby, with the rest being assembled at Inchicore. The Irish Rail carriages were different to those used in UK in that the doors were opened by pressing a switch.

goingnowhere

Strictly speaking the Mk3 order well the new coach order even predates from the Dalkey crash of '79.

As part of the DART project CIE had latched on to LHB as a supplier.

CIE had lined up a deal with LHB as early as 1979 (before the Buttervant and Cherryville accidents), that dragged on, it got stuck with unions and politics.

The plan B was the Mk3 and this order was placed before Cherryville

RetroEncabulator

There was an urgency placed behind it though and a chunk of money made available.

I’m not sure where public monies for infrastructure were coming from in those days but there was a big injection of capital into railways - DART, MK3 and CAWS, and also an even bigger injection into telecommunications, with very long overdue modernisation.

Were EEC monies coming in or investment bank loans or something?

myfreespirit

Not sure about the investment in the rail network, but much of the money for telecommunications was borrowed and eventually loaded onto Telecom Éireann as debt, following the establishment of BTE and An Post in 1984.

SeanW

I never got to ride on the Mk3s as they never came out my way growing up, are there any in preservation anywhere?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547834#Comment_121547834

Some at Moyasta. None running

supereurope

Were the mk3s only deployed out of Heuston? I read somewhere that until the arrival of the De Dietrich stock in 1997, the Enterprise used mk2 coaches (if an IR-operated service), so were there any mk3 services out of Connolly (other than the push-pulls)?

Conversely, did the mk2 ever see much service on Cork routes once the mk3s were rolled out? I have no recollection of ever being on a mk2 service to Dublin. I have been on the mk2As out of Cork, on match specials back in the 90s, and in the early 2000s, I used to take a Sunday afternoon train to Dublin. It was an ex-Tralee service, and it used mk2As, and later the push-pulls (IIRC.)

RetroEncabulator

The Cork - Dublin train wasn’t always MK3 either. Off peak it was regularly operated by Cravens or was it MK2. I just remember that were a bit depressing on board with fluorescent lighting and seemed really old.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121548546#Comment_121548546

Likely both at times, Cravens did mostly peak additional workings in their latter years.

Mk3 push-pulls did the occasional Maynooth sub-in during the time they were common on Drogheda

supereurope

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121548546#Comment_121548546

Yes, meant to say that actually...I have been on a Cravens service from Heuston to Cork. Not often though, and always on a weekend.

goingnowhere

IE wasn't willing to risk the Mk3 on Dublin Belfast and since NIR was running non AC Mk2abc stock the Mk2d AC stock was 'better'. The Mk3 did make the trip a few times, same with Rosslare, no record of Sligo though.

The slow train to Cork, aka, the 2100 Dublin Cork and 0515 Cork Dublin was always a Mk2d until 2006. Cravens on Cork were very very rare on scheduled services.

L1011

The Sligo lines weight restriction before Carrick on Shannon stopped 201s which would have reduced the chances of sending a set there even if there were other issues

supereurope

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121549335#Comment_121549335

Ah, that's interesting. I never took the 2100 Dublin - Cork service but took the early Cork - Dublin a few times between 2001 and 2003. Can't recall the coaching stock used, but I remember they weren't mk3s. I've always assumed I never travelled in a mk2d coach but maybe I did after all.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121549335#Comment_121549335

Yes there was one time in 1994 when IE put a Mk3 on the Rosslare line to do some publicity shots for a television ad.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121550793#Comment_121550793

The Mk2Ds had air conditioning and sealed windows, so if you travelled in coaches that were not MK3s but had sealed windows, then you did travel in MK2Ds. The "Cravens" on the other hand had openable windows, as did the Park Royals back in the day.

Another clue might be the interior decor, I only rode in the cravens once IIRC but they had a very 1950s look about them inside, whereas the MK2ds had a lot of dark brown wood effect formica IIRC. So they looked like something out of the 1970s (which they were).

As to the earlier question about services from Connolly station, they were mostly MK2Ds, aside from the Enterprise which were DeDeitriches as far back as my memory goes, Sligo never saw Mk3s and they'd have been rare if ever going down to Rosslare. The exception of course was commuter services which had the push-pull Mk3 sets.

supereurope

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121552394#Comment_121552394

Thanks - I honestly can't remember anything about the coaches on the early morning train other than they definitely weren't mk3. I wish I took more pictures of things over the years, even things that might have seemed mundane at the time.

I stumbled across this earlier - its from (what was then) the Cork Examiner almost this very day 31 years ago. It's an impression of the 201 locos, drawn with the assumption the 1987 IR logo would remain and that the 201s would be painted similar to the 071s.

Glaceon

CIE Mk2 interior shot here. I was only on them two or three times, all on direct Limerick services.

https://www.steamtrainsireland.com/rpsi-collection/74/303-mk2-standard-open

L1011

Seats weren't that colour but otherwise unchanged

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121552819#Comment_121552819

RPSI seem to do that alright, the Cravens all have different moquette to their Irish Rail days.

Losty Dublin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121586593#Comment_121586593

RPSI got different seat fabrics solely because the designs for the original seats had long gone. One of the orders is a design that was used for a bus company; it may well have been Matthews.

supereurope

I found a colour photo in an 1988 RTÉ Guide of the mark IIIs with airline-style seating.