Volunteer/IRA Use of RIC Carbines

Coggansfield

Volunteer/IRA Use of RIC Carbines

I am currently writing a scholarly book on Lee-Enfield Royal Irish Constabulary pattern carbines, 11,200 of which were in the early 20th century converted to the police pattern from the UK cavalry-pattern carbines of the day. These were used by the RIC from March 1904 until about the middle of 1920. For your reference, an example is shown in the first photo attached. Note the distinctive flat-knobbed, forward-curved bolt handle, and the fact that the first 5 inches of the barrel are exposed.

From the issue numbers of the surviving examples (of which there are many, particularly in North America), we can tell that the later carbine batches were issued as substitutes for the earlier batches. (There were five batches made in total.) This is turn indicates that many of the earlier ones were “liberated” during the Volunteers’ and Old IRA’s numerous weapons raids on RIC barracks, 1919-21.

For the purposes of book illustration, what I am interested in obtaining is photos of Volunteers/IRA armed with such carbines. The second three photos show the sort of image I’m keen to use. In these, I have added an arrow pointing to the RIC carbines.

Any photos anyone may have, or know about, of such carbines being used will be much appreciated. Then captions under any photos used will credit you for your generosity. Should you have a pertinent photo and be willing to share it, but for some reason not wish you name to be used, that’s fine. I can have the credit read, “Photo courtesy of owner. Name withheld for reasons of privacy.” 

Thanks very much,

Douglas P. Munro, Ph.D.

Attachments:

1/ An RIC pattern Lee-Enfield carbine.

2/ IRA-Volunteer flying column with RICCs.

3/ Ditto.

4/ Ditto.

Chauncey Gardner

Hi CF.

I cant assist you with photos, but have you seen my post in Military?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058253374/ballistics-state-forces-use-mk-v11-303-bullets#latest

Chauncey Gardner

PS: Following storm disturbance in local coastal dunes system, I found a large number of fired bullets (evidence of many hundred +), plus shrapnel, but no cases. They have been dated by one historian/author to be from around the Irish Civil War/War of Indepenence period. That were found at what appears to have been a pre-organised, but relatively small firing practice target area. They are also very consistent in type. There was an RIC Barracks in walking distance which was I think "abandoned"in 1919.

There is strong enough theory to suggest that the bullets were fired during the Irish War of independence Era (1919-1921).

I have tried to establish the age and date and organisers of the practice firing area, but haven't been able to confirm anything as fact.

Coggansfield

This is very interesting. If the rounds are .303 and can definitively be dated to 1919 (which they probably can’t), then they’d have been shot through RIC carbines, as the RIC did not get SMLEs until 1920. I don’t know much about RIC firing practice after the First World War. Before WWI, when everything was pretty peaceful in Ireland, I believe each man was restricted to 21 practice shots per year. These, moreover, were not even serious rounds. They were .22 training rounds fired through a Morris Tube barrel insert.

If the site you mention was a proper range, either RIC or FCA, it's hard to believe it wouldn’t appear on an old map somewhere (if only to warn people to stay out of harm’s way).

Continental Op had a sensible suggestion about looking for old charger clips. The ones for SMLEs or No. 4 rifles are pretty distinctive looking. On the other hand, the RIC carbine did not accept chargers. The six rounds had to be loaded into the mag laboriously by hand. So RICCs users would have had no clips to leave behind.

Wish I could help more. I’d love to know what more you find out about this — Coggo

Chauncey Gardner

Hi Cogg,

Thanks for posting. Bar finding our more factual evidence, I think I've currently taken this research project as far as I can, unfortunately.

However, if I had to make a guess as to the most likely scenario, I'd guess that the bullets were fired around the Truce Period when Sinn Fein and the IRA dominated local government and were carrying out activities that had previously been the domain of the RIC, unchallenged. And that the rifles and ammunition had been previously requisitioned from the RIC Barracks in Strandhill. But that's a guess.

if I do find out any further info I'll let you know. Best wishes with the research.

Coggansfield

You never know: maybe a few of the earlier rounds had been fired by these fellows: McElkinney, Fahy, Healy and Fenton, the Strandhill barracks contingent in 1911. See RIC Barracks 1911 > Sligo > Strandhill Town (Knockarea, Sligo) at winters online (this forum won't let me post a direct link). As a matter of interest, where was the RIC barracks? Can one see it on Google Earth?

Cheers — Coggo

Chauncey Gardner

Coggo. PM sent.

Coggansfield

I've found the old RIC barracks on the 1901 Ordance Survey map of Ireland. The relevant bit of Strandhill is attached, the barracks being at the top right (Constab. Bk.). No mention of any rifle range in the dunes, though. Incidentally, for those not familiar with the National Library of Scotland's series of Ordnance Survey maps of the British Isles, zoomable and searchable, I highly recommend a gander. I've frittered away countless hours on the NLS website — Coggo

Chauncey Gardner

Hi Coggo, many thanks for that.

As mentioned in the PM, I think I've tried every avenue currently available to identify who fired the bullets so I wouldn't want anyone to have to spend time chasing that up again on my behalf : )

Boards member "The Continental OP" was very helpful in that regard, but we weren't able to confirm anything.

I've also been in contact with Cathal Brugha Barracks who had no record of any such state forces activity and I've also trawled through the Military Archives but there's no record or mention of any such activity in that area. Although further records might be added later to the archive.

I've also not been able to find any reports of the abandonment of the RIC Barracks which might possibly throw some light on things, ie: if rifles and ammunition were taken. But its all guess work unfortunately. Maybe somewhere down the line some info might arise to solve the puzzle.

Many thanks.

Coggansfield

This is a truly bizarre mystery!

Chauncey Gardner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481450#Comment_121481450

Totally and absolutely.

I've been chasing this up for 3+ years on and off. The Archaeology Dept at the local Uni have suggested, going by the info that I currently have, that I should write a paper for publication in a relevant Journal. The County Library services have expressed keen interest in having the bullets on display in their museum, if I can absolutely prove who fired them, and to date I cant, and wish I could.

There are many aspects to suggest that the bullets are of historic value/interest, but I cant prove anything at present.