Firebird Olympic 50-82

John.G

Some words of wisdom here from the Riello experts re a problem from another forum.

The above has a Riello G2SX burner installed. It recently developed a fault where the fan just runs and runs on startup but no lockout, the photocell was removed but the same thing happens, fan just continuously runs with no lockout. A new photocell (non riello) was installed but same problem with it either in place or removed. A new control box, a 530SE, was installed but the exact same problem persists, fan just runs and runs.

Wearb

Non Reillo cell? mmmm.

Coil can also give rise to this condition.

jimf

check for 54v at the white wire

could also be a motor issue but i would try a coil as well as wearb says

John.G

A new coil was also fitted, there is apparently 50V present when the motor runs so wonder could it be a wiring fault?

declan b

As well as the coil,a faulty motor can also give rise to this condition

John.G

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365453#Comment_121365453

Presume you are talking about the oil solenoid valve coil?, this was renewed.

declan b

If the photocell is removed and the motor is giving back 53v through the white wire.it can only be the coil or control box.nothing else

John.G

My 530SE Control Box Bottomside.jpg

If the push comes to a shove what is the replacement burner??

Could the readings below show up anything bearing in mind that the control box, the photocell & the coil were all replaced but I think that the new photcell was not a genuine Riello spare.

My 530SE Terminal wiring.jpg

I have the same 530SE control Box and took a few readings, the first thing I should mention in case I forget it is I think there are two types of photocell, digital& analogue?, mine measures 434/3890 ohms light/light blinded.

Other readings (terminal box)

Between terminals and ohms

1-2 1450 (coil)

1-8 1442 (coil)

2-3 OC

3-6 3.37K (I think)

3-7 8.4 (motor)

6-E 161 (capacitor)

photocell 434/3890 with light/light blanked off.

There are 3 wires going to the coil, blue/brown/black so maybe closing winding and hold in winding?

jimf

QUESTION

What is the voltage on the oil valve coil & why 3 wires?

ANSWER

29 V DC at ignition, Switching to 3 Volts during run. The coil has two tappings; the first to use the full coil potential to CLOSE the valve, then reduced voltage to hold it there. 

(Note: The RDB burner coil has only 2 wires, the coil winding voltage from control box gives 30 V DC and 3 V DC on run).

John.G

Jim, my coil, Riello G5X with the 530 SE control box has 3 wires, I mistyped the above, 1 to 2 is brown to the coil common and 8 to 2 is black to the coil common, I stuck a needle in the black wire at the coil today with boiler running and it read 54V, I presume it puts 230V to the brown wire on start up to close the valve?, now I had the volt meter to AC? so presume I'm measuring 54V AC, if it is 3V DC then that would have registered 0 with the M.meter set to 500VAC. The coil resistance is 1450 ohms so assuming 230V at start up then the coil power is 36.5 watts and only 2.0 watts while running, seems very low.

Just thinking about that again, if 30V is used for closing the valve and 3V to keep it closed then a coil with 1450 ohm resistance will have a closing power of 0.62 watts and a holding power of 0.0062 watts or 6.2 milliwatts, not a hope IMO.

declan b

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370093#Comment_121370093

John. I dont believe there is a digital photocell for this model burner.It not a digital control box.To simplify i would be looking at the fault finding chart for this model riello burner.

John.G

Its somebody else who may be looking for a replacement burner for a Riello G2SX, any ideas?.

declan b

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121373782#Comment_121373782

what make/ model boiler..

jimf

john i am not able to comment as you are gone way to technical for me again

all i know is all my years i have only seen 2 riello r40 coils fail

but if you getting 54v at the white wire your burner is behaving exactly as i would expect

declan b

riello G2SX running continous

Its one of four

1/ remove the photocell from control box. Restart burner. If burner goes to lockout the fault is the photocell.

if burner still runs continous...

2/ Test the coil

Resistance of blue+ black wire = 1.4 ohms

Resistance of blue + brown wire = 1.47 Kilo ohms

If coil is good and motor still runs continous

3/ Test for 53 volts in white wire from the motor

[ the 53 volts in the white wire runs the control box ]

If 53 volts is present in the white wire

4/ Change the control box

Also note [the only accurate way to text a photocell is with a lux meter.Its still not 100 percent accurate as the parameters of a photocell can change when its gets warm]

declan b

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121373598#Comment_121373598

From what i know John 230volts only goes to the motor and capacitor,nothing else

John.G

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121373889#Comment_121373889

Thanks Declan, first the replacement burner that may have to be purchased for the problem Firebird Olympic 50-82 boiler (kerosene) with a Riello G2SX burner (and the 530 SE control Box), can you recommend a replacement if the problem cannot be soved?

Re my own Riello G5X + the 530 SE box which incidentally has never ever tripped on combustion failure in 18 years but if I keep sticking the wifes darning needles in it, it might.

I checked agan and yes the black to blue, (8 to 2) resistance is, on my M.meter, 1.7 ohms, the brown to blue, (1 to 2) is 1447 ohms) but I am still getting 54/55VAC when I probe between the black (via the needle stuck in it at the coil, burner running) and either the main neutral or earth, I cannot get any reading on any of the DC scales, Obviously something strange with the measurement as 54V (even if AC) on a 1.4 ohm coil would give a huge power input which I presume would bun it out in a second. However these were my readings.

Wearb

Re replacement burner; I'd be happy to use any burner in the same output range so long as compatible with same type head. Set it up for appropriate output with same nozzle angle.

THEN smoke and combustion tests would be essential.

----------

You said your burner never went to lockout. Did it ever get to a lockout situation eg run out of oil? Did you ever run it with cell removed? I'm just confused by your readings and would link to check that it can go to lockout if flame fails. The coil is obviously working when power is shut off to control box.

John.G

Correct, my burner has never tipped on combustion failure in over 18 years, I have never let my tank run dry, its another person on anothe (UK) forum who's having problems despite changing the control box (same as mine, a 530SE) the photocell and I think the solenoid valve coil, I was taking a few readings off mine for comparison purposes since his burner uses the same coil, my only mystery is why I'm apparently measuring 54VAC on the supply to a coil which is 3VDC. I have no intention of failing my burner delibaretely.

Wearb

I wouldn't normally suggest that test, but with those readings, I'd do it if I was working on it.

I'm no longer familiar with the coil readings (I used to do it when i first started worki g on boilers). Now I don't bother but follow the flow chart (in my head now) when diagnosing the continuous running problem. Also I'd have spares to to try which simplifies things.

John.G

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121373862#Comment_121373862

Also checked the brown (1400 ohm) wire and get 4.74VDC so this coil power is 0.016 watts or 16milliwatts, not a lot!! and I still get 54VAC on the black (1.4 ohm) wire at the same time. Just doesn't make sense.

declan b

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121374132#Comment_121374132

i would be fitting a g5x John