Farm land lease

lg123

Hello everyone,

We have some farmland that has been leased out for 30-35 years. Pretty sure the same two farmers have been on the plots since my family got out of farming years ago.

Anyway, I'm thinking of converting it to forestry which means they will need to be kicked out. What is the customary notice period for the termination of a lease like this?

A formal lease agreement was never signed, just a handshake and a cash transaction every year.

I don't want to screw them but have no idea where my expectations should be at.

massey 265

Sounds like u might have a bit of bother if you have this land ''leased" for this period of time without a signed and stamped legal lease in place as these tenants could claim adverse possision if on your land longer than 12 years uninterupted and paying cash.Consult your solicitor before u proceed further or this could get seriously tricky.

Good loser

Will be no question of adverse possession if they were paying rent. Would be slow to put any ground into forestry. The Dept are a nightmare. If it's good land by planting it you are immediately halving the capital value.

massey 265

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121360240#Comment_121360240

Re adverse possession ,how do u prove that they paid you if they paid in cash?Its your word against theirs and will this bring up a taxation problem also if this cash income was not declared.A can of worms comes to mind

sandman30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121360299#Comment_121360299

If you have declared the rent and paid tax on it, that will help.

However if someone has been leasing land for over 20 years, my understanding is the tenant accrues extra rights and is automatically entitled to a lease renewal. That is why conacre is only for 11 months, to prevent that happening.

As a previous poster said you should consult a solicitor, particularly if you think they may be tricky.

Anto_Meath

If the lads renting the land for the last number of years have been declaring it as rented on their single farm payment applications then they have acknowledged that they don't have any adverse entitlement over the property.

@lg123 I assume you ain't planning on put this land into forestry in the next 12 months or so. Therefore it might be an idea to slowly mention the subject with your tenants over the next few months so that they have about a year to prepare for the loss of the use of the land.

older by the day

I'm not you but I would look at your plans to putting the land in to forestry. A lot of fellows very sorry now, they have given their lands away for 15 years of premium. And have fuuucked it up for the next generation. Maybe when it matures you might not be able to harvest it. I can't see clear felling in 40 years.

Maybe a mix of Forrest and rent

If it's anyway good ground, ring a local auctioneer and see what land is making to rent/sell or site value in the area.

You have a very valuable asset. Get some proper advice.

Good loser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121360299#Comment_121360299

You won't know unless you try. If Revenue hear they will probably look for back tax; don't know if they are limited in years back they can go. Tenants are probably using land for SFP (now BISS) in which case their applications would show ground as rented/leased. If tenants signed a lease with you of 5 years minimum the rent would be tax free to you; that would be a good reason for asking them to sign a proper lease; an auctioneer could have these lease and could advise you generally - get one dealing with farm sales/leases.

1373

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121360299#Comment_121360299

The op was looking forward to kicking them out and now looking like he'll be kicked out, bring it on

Siamsa Sessions

Two quick actions you can undertake:

(1) Find out more about forestry - you've already got some insight on here, and ask neighbours around you too. Related question: why do you want to plant the ground now? What do you want from it? Is it financial, family legacy, wildlife/biodiversity, etc.

(2) Talk to a solicitor and get legal advice early rather than late.

You might get some more advice or insights on here too if you can state how much land is involved and the type of land; e.g. 5 acres of boggy ground at the butt of a mountain is very different to 50 acres of free-draining soil in the Golden Vale. Another related question: have the tenants maintained or "improved" (technical term) the ground from what it was when they leased it first? As in, have they drained it, reseeded it, set up paddocks, applied lime, kept hedgerows trimmed, etc. Or has it been let run wild with briars and furze bushes everywhere?

The more info you can share on here, the more informed the replies you will get.

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Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121373574#Comment_121373574

No. Nothing to do with being lived in. In fact, Adverse possession was a mechanism used under Common Law to make sure that land could always be used. (The term they used is "seised", basically that someone had to be able to control it. The Common Law wanted to prevent an "abeyance of seisin")

But it would be unlikely to establish adverse possession on the details above. The "squatter" has to have had possession of the property, without permission, and adverse to the title of the legal owner. They have to have taken measures to exclude the legal title holder such as putting locks on gates or putting up fences etc. It can be difficult to establish adverse possession. Simple acts can be interpreted as the owner asserting their title, and once that title is asserted, the clock resets.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121373574#Comment_121373574

So you are saying there is no such thing as adverse possession for farm land? Nonsense

lg123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370206#Comment_121370206

Jeez, I wasn't looking forward to kicking them out, I just didn't want to give them three months and the general expectation would be six.

lg123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121371745#Comment_121371745

Thanks for the input. My main reason is to extract a bit more value out of the land, i.e. financial motivation. I'm not a farmer nor have any interest in becoming one. Given the current forestry scheme, I thought this might be an option.

There are two plots, one is relatively well maintained and the other has completely run wild with zero maintenance - haven't seen animals on it in years.

1373

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377359#Comment_121377359

Only joking , but seriously if there's no contract, then I just a case of telling them that they won't be able to get the use of it next year. They might ask for another year to get something else sorted

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377394#Comment_121377394

Depending on the quality of land you could be crazy to put forestry on it. When land is planted it's goes from whatever value 5-6k/ acre. Ya you get the grant fur 15-20 years. Out of the harvest value you have to replant and there is no income until you start to harvest again.

TBH you are better off cashing in the value instead of opting for forestry.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121373603#Comment_121373603

He said there was no case for adverse possession in this case and he is correct. OP had never conceded possession.

Anyway adverse possession is a lot more complicated and cost serious money if it is contested. It's not a matter of rocking up and claiming it. If it is contested it's a high cour case. If you win it is unlikely your costs will be covered by the original owner even if awarded by the judge. If you lose its a different matter the Judge will nearly definitely award against you.

tabby aspreme

⁸

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377394#Comment_121377394

The piece that you have never seen animals on is probably just being used for the maps, so the stocking rate can be increased on other land the farmer has