Pupil with autism assaulted by teacher

Oscar_Madison

Posting here considering it’s the teacher forum I’d be interested in views and opinions.

I know someone who has a child with autism- the SNA’s are great; they understand the various behaviours etc and report back often to the parents around observations etc

However I also know of a principal who has very poor behaviours towards autistic children and is likely going to be going down the road of some form of disciplinary hearing if they don’t educate themselves. Multiple complaints I’m the offing

My own view of this incident? It just shouldn’t have happened. Teacher was 56 years old- it sounds like she may not have been provided with any sort of guidance on managing pupils with challenging behaviours or else has a personal belief that can’t distinguish between naughty behaviour and challenging behaviour (but doesn’t excuse assault) but hard to believe that in 2023.

Right decision of course but I imagine things are very tough for teachers these days

https://m.sundayworld.com/crime/courts/teacher-found-guilty-of-assaulting-autistic-pupil-by-dragging-her-out-of-classroom-by-her-heels/a180307878.html

artanevilla

Even if it was "naughty" behavior it doesn't justify an assault on a child.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121340258#Comment_121340258

Oh sure - I probably didn’t express myself properly above - I’ve edited now thanks

amacca

I'm not sure what to think tbh....initially I was thinking teacher stepped way over the line, but I was thinking it was secondary school context

Seems from the article the students were very young, is that correct?

I read something about a "positive handling policy" ....something I'd be totally unfamiliar with....but if that does exist and is a thing then doesn't that mean there are some occasions when the student can be/has to be physically led from room/handled?

Then it's down to how policy is worded, when you have a responsibility to do it and if in this case it was warranted?

And then I suppose in the absence of definitive evidence either way its a he said, she said sort of deal.....which would beg the question should the policy be no handling at all as its putting teachers and perhaps students in an unreasonable position and maybe leaving the door open for those that might abuse any deficiencies on the teacher or student side..and if there is occasion to do so (ie: handle) then the school needs a way to document the justification and prove it was necessary or video the classroom (total can of worms) so people aren't hung out to dry .... or specialists in handling students that are a danger to themselves or others provided

If it was me I'd be wary of being put in a situation where I'm responsible for "handling" a student if they are a physical threat to themselves or others without some definitive mechanism for proving beyond a shadow of a doubt it was necessary.....and training, and a whole host of other things

Is it a mainstream national school?

The teacher apparently said "what else could I do" ...maybe they felt that way and it was the case or maybe its strategy....so I suppose it has to come down to proof either way or how badly policy was worded etc

xyz13

Special needs children belong in special need schools.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121343233#Comment_121343233

And tell me this- where do they “belong” when they become adults?

vinegar_zombie

🤡🌏️

Truly Horrifying

Apiarist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121343233#Comment_121343233

How about a special school for people who should research a topic before commenting on a public forum?

For a majority of special needs children, there are huge benefits to being educated in a normal school, especially if it is a local school their local friends attend. Also, other children benefit from knowing that children with special needs exist and how to interact with them.

Back to the topic though, I do not understand why the teacher had to bring the child to the sensory room herself. It seems from the article that the SNA (special needs assistant) was available, and SNAs are more qualified to correctly deal with these issues. If the SNA was temporarily absent from the class, did the teacher leave other children unattended while she was dragging the child out of the classroom?

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121345483#Comment_121345483

I also wonder why she defended herself - it’s a very strange case in fairness and hopefully a one off - I deliberately posted this in the teaching forum in the hope of getting teachers to contribute their experiences but doesn’t look like that’s happening for whatever reason.

Teaching is a tough job these days and I suppose what this case highlights are the additional skills that teachers now require in order to successfully navigate todays classroom environment.

As I mentioned in my OP- I know of a school principal who has a horrendous attitude towards special needs pupils - even myself, who doesn’t have special needs training, couldn’t fathom some of the stories I’ve heard about this person.

There certainly are teachers out there that need further intensive training - I guess my question to all teachers is, leaving aside this is a case of assault, do you believe you’re supported enough to deal with children with special needs?

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121345628#Comment_121345628

I personally don't think there are near enough supports anyway....it was quite the undertaking to try and attend to the needs of up to 30 students in a class in my time.....It didn't seem possible in the absence of a decent standard of discipline and proper supports/resources, both of which werent up to scratch..I can only imagine the situation has disimproved.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121348391#Comment_121348391

Indeed and Teacher or not, I suppose we can all in some way put ourselves in teachers shoes having been pupils ourselves in the past. You’ve seen the coal-face from the other side of the desk albeit a few years ago which was hard enough even then

spurious

Mod> there has already been one post saying where the school is. I know where the school is, and I know the area posted was false, so that nonsense will stop now.

I work in a special class and it is not for the faint hearted. More training and more support and more patience and an amazing understanding of the children's needs is needed for all staff to work in special classes.

I have children who have been completely left high and dry by services in this country. Then we as teachers are been left to pick up the pieces and it is so hard. I have a child who hasn't been seen by a SLT for over a year and when I finally managed to get her on the phone and question why he hasn't been seen when there are huge needs there, she told me to do ABC charts on his behaviour, which has been gathering dust in my files since September! Also, OT , OT who! It is so so frustrating!

Anyway back to the incident...it comes back to training and having the right people in the room with the right understanding of the children and their needs. Not everyone is cut out for it and incidences like this shouldn't happen. It is a team effort to support a child with SEN.

Earlier in the year, I had an SNA basically sit on a child to restrain him. The child went home hysterical and the parents obviously wanted to know why. The principal lied in the report sent home to downplay the incident. It is hugely upsetting for this to happen on your watch and see a child not treated with dignity and respect. It could easily have went to court like this incident. It comes down to having the wrong people working with children with SEN and completely lacking in self awareness and lacking in the ability to reflect on their own behaviour and improve.

TheValeyard

I couldn't hack the SEN unit in our school. It's newish and very different from your traditional SEN or resource class. These kids have very high needs and / behavioural problems.

So far this year we have had staff who have been slapped, bitten, hit in the head by an ipad. Shouted and cursed at threatened, etc. Management keeps doing a whole hush hush on it. Honestly not sure what the solution going forward is.

As for dragging a student out by their ankles, I cannot imagine a situation where a fully qualified teacher with a good bedrock of experience and training would resort to that. Just seems bizarre.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121355271#Comment_121355271

“Hush hush” is the worst thing to do - leaving the case I quoted aside, which in fairness looks to be an exception, if a child is biting or kicking a teacher there needs to be clear response approaches - but also there needs to be an appreciation, that teachers are teachers, not trained medical professionals - I know it might go against the grain a bit but I do think there needs to be some sort of respond/review/do better sort of loop that protects teachers- it enables them to be truthful and also learn how to handle a situation better next time - so supportive and improvement orientated not penalty and discipline orientated - I mean what is the response if a child is having a major episode and is doing harm to a teacher?

You have it tough guys - just wanted to say I appreciate that you do.

byhookorbycrook

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121343233#Comment_121343233

They aren't "special needs children" they are children with additional needs. Just to be clear, you want every single child with additional needs educated out of their local area. The children with dyslexia, dyspraxia, developmental language disorder, dyscalculia, Down syndrome, mild learning general disabilities, autistic children ? You do realize that in a class of 30, there will be at least 3 children with any of the above? Let's round them all off and send them to a school outside their community. Please tell me you are not a teacher or a parent.

Most autistic people prefer to be called autistic , rather than "with autism."

getoutadodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365217#Comment_121365217

Is this approach, while maybe beneficial to special needs students, actually detrimental to the rest of the class? Holding back the majority thereby lowering standards.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369558#Comment_121369558

Had it with my son. A small class with 2 snas. He was in the class 3 years and we moved. We hadn't realised how held back he was until he started a new school and was struggling with the basics of maths , English and Irish. Took a lot of work by the school and me..and him to get him up to speed and at the level he should have been at.

He's in secondary now and is flying

Treppen

Inclusion is all nice and noble for a minister to be talking about. But if it's under resourced with high attrition then it's inevitable that SOME teachers will take out their frustrations on a child. Not condoning it for one minute but it's going to happen.

If you're a teacher in a special class (for want of a better word) and there's A court case taken against you, will the department of education/school have your back for legal assistance. Nope, you're on your own. But yet they're happy to throw inexperienced teachers in very challenging situations.

getoutadodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370519#Comment_121370519

Indeed! Though it's been many decades since I was in school, I recall it was a herculean challenge for the unfortunate teacher to control up to forty boys in a cramped class. Moreover, teaching students of widely differing ability in the same unit was really tough on them. They were effectively trying their best to teach different streams in parallel within the same room. This integration policy, however well intentioned, while nobly assisted by SNAs, must be a huge burden. I tip my hat to teachers.

byhookorbycrook

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369558#Comment_121369558

I note in your later post that you say it's been many decades since you were in school. Are you advocating that schools should exclude any child with any additional need,? Teaching is not a "one size fits all" approach. Children with a need in one area may be ahead of their peers in another. How do you propose to decide how a child is selected for a special school and for which needs? There is a cohort of children with very profound needs who may need to be in a special school to access all the supports such as hydrotherapy, OT , SLT etc. but you are classifying all children with additional needs as " holding back the majority."

getoutadodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377114#Comment_121377114

I suspect this approach might be lowering standards in the overall group ..yes...but it's heresy in this age to suggest it. Should academically gifted students get special treatment to drive them on at a faster pace?

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121343233#Comment_121343233

You are a dinosaur.

Id bet you think single mothers belong in laundries.

mode1990

I remember the 70s well ! Licking you're palms , an urban legend that was supposed to take the sting out of the stick ! This was primary school ! Kids with autism, adhd hadn't a prayer back then , beaten or humiliated, being called a "dope" , it was outright assault , so for it to be still going on 50 years later makes me furious !

byhookorbycrook

Children with exceptional ability are also considered to have additional needs . Do we shunt them off too?

I’ve been involved in advocating for student with EA for many years .Like other children with additional needs , the class teacher must differentiate for them too .

Wanderer78

have autism myself, get supports from an autism group, results from our current system, long term trauma, including ptsd with most, resulting in long term problems including long term unemployment, serious mental health problems, dysfunctional behaviors including addiction problems etc etc. whos pay for all of this, us the taxpayers of course, so no rush in trying to find solutions now!