part time farmer switching from sucklers to beef

Stationmaster

Farming about 60 acres at the moment - marginal land. Some very good summer grazing land - mix of good hills and bog - half it of then too wet for 6 months of the year.

Currently have 15 suckler cows and the bull. Sell the calves anytime between November & December usually. No slatted house so I've decided this is the last year of wintering out.

Obviously one obvious option is build a slatted house and keep going as I'm going. I enjoy it, most of the the time, and I do love the sucklers.

The cost of a slatted house for a small operation like mine though is big - even with the grant. So, I'm debating getting rid of the cows and just buying weanlings, feed them off grass for the 7 months and move them on so no wintering of anything.

I know it's all guess work but roughly how many weanlings/yearlings would I comfortably feed on the same grass that is easily feeding the cows and calves? If I have them for the 7 or 8 months what weight gain realistically am I looking at with no meal? Just trying to do the math's as well.

Thanks.

tanko

Have you considered joining the Organic Farming Scheme?? You’d get approx €40,000 over the next five years.

Diarmuid B

be a great idea to go down the organic route, and use the substantial money from that plus the grant to build yourself a slatted shed with a lie back. Then in five years when the organic contract is up you’ll have a shed and then the option to go back conventional or stick with the organics.

Albert Johnson

I think you're debating moving from one low margin setup to another albeit with a lower labour input. Buying weanlings in the springtime means you're purchasing at the highest price point of the year and selling at the lowest in the backend. There's lots of lads looking for stock in the spring and prices rarely correspond with anything you'd call value especially for nice suckler bred cattle. There's a lot of cattle bought at mad money in the spring being offloaded atm by 7 months men and there bound to be leaving an odd headache behind them.

Half the battle in a trading system is buying them right the first day and if you slip up here you're in the red straight away. You also need to get good weight gain throughout the summer to have a better class of animal to sell than what you bought. Record prices in the springtime for stock, a bad thriving year or a TB outbreak in a system where you aim to sell them live is a disaster in such a setup especially when you've no winter accommodation.

I'd be more inclined to buy cull cows or agey beef bred bullocks in you're setup. There's not as many lunatics around the ring for them on day one and it's easier to see what you're buying as they have there growth complete and only need to gain condition. They'll make better use of average type grazing for the same reason and don't need as much attention as weanlings regards weaning, pneumonia ect. You'll have a beef animal to sell in the autumn and if you have problems with Tb you can slaughter them. If the land can keep a suckler cow in average condition while rearing a calf and carrying another then it will fatten a dry cow.

Stationmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121337820#Comment_121337820

Yea, definitely looking into that. Bar putting fertilizer on the silage ground at the moment I'd say I'm more or less organic in everything else.

Stationmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121338699#Comment_121338699

Yea, looking into that too and of course the 60% grant makes it a serious option.

Stationmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121338721#Comment_121338721

Didn't think of things that way - good viewpoint there - thanks.

kk.man

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121338902#Comment_121338902

Buying in a mart and reselling in a mart is a recipe for disaster... alot needs to go right for it to be a success.

Albert Johnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121339193#Comment_121339193

You need to be selling something better than what you bought and you also need to have bought something that can carry a margin. The typical summer grazing craic that goes on with buying stock at a plunder in April, throwing them off on a middling run for the summer and selling them 7 months older and weather beaten the following November is always a recipe for disappointment. That's why I mentioned cull cows as it's something you could add value to imo as opposed to yearlings which will exist for the summer and the biggest thing you'll add to them is a movement.

Belongamick

I am the classic 7 month summer grazer - formally a suckler cow man like stationmaster.

I could not keep the job and suckler cows going, so I had to switch to buying in spring and selling in winter (no shed here.)

Totally agree with Albert J that buying at the height of the market in spring and hoping that prices will be good in late autumn is not a great recipe for success. In the ten years that I have been doing this, I have not lost any money but have not made much either.

To get off this treadmill, I am thinking of building a dry shed to allow me some flexibility of when and what to buy outside of the May deadline every year. (Think slatted shed is too much money for my setup.)

Currently, to have a saleable animal, I am buying a 300-350kg continental bullock in spring when every grass nut is looking for the same thing. I hope to buy a few lighter animals in late winter/early spring and avoid the peak buying window.

Think Albert J's suggestion in buying larger is good but heavier stock might tear up the place in a wet July which would be a concern.

kk.man

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121339621#Comment_121339621

I bought bigger cattle in spring but lost in 2 out of 5 years so that's it never again. The years you make you together a good return but when you lose you lose bad..this year the cartel pulled in mid May (which never happened in my time buying cattle) ...lesson learned..system changed

Jjameson

If your in the buying and selling game, the system I think there’s a turn in is buying dairy runners in late autumn/winter , and selling well done, warm and weighing well as 18- 24 months in January feb to the feeder lads. You need sheds,fodder and a degree of intensity, and you have to do them well.

But as you are your surely a perfect fit for the organic scheme. Sucklers or sheep perhaps

Stationmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121340206#Comment_121340206

My only problem with keeping the sucklers and going organic is that I've no fertilizer/slurry for silage fields. The option to go organic and put up the slatted house with the 60% grant is tempting and probably a better alternative at the moment than changing to a 7 month enterprise.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121340271#Comment_121340271

Worth noting slats are no good for organic. You need a solid floor for housing.

With you outwintering you avoid the strict organic housing criteria. A plus and can build the sheds in the back ground.

While you can’t spread N there are organic P k that can be spread. Not cheap but you will be getting a significant payment.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121340271#Comment_121340271

https://www.fruithillfarm.com/organic-soil-plant-fertilisers/granular-fertilizers/kalisop-sulphate-of-potash-42-k.html

42%K (so 3.5x the K in a bag of 18-6-12).

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121340271#Comment_121340271

https://www.fruithillfarm.com/organic-soil-plant-fertilisers/granular-fertilizers/rock-phosphate-fertilizer-11-p-dolophos.html

11% P so just less than 2x a bag of 18-16-12.

There are options!

youllbemine

Would going organic and keeping the sucklers be an option? Best of both worlds?

White Clover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121340317#Comment_121340317

Do you know how much a tonne that product is and the Sulphate of Potash? A rough idea will do.

Jjameson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121340271#Comment_121340271

I think you can import slurry as well.

Albert Johnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121339860#Comment_121339860

What do you propose doing next?

blue5000

Organic sucklers here, as 893 says you either need a bedded lieback area or have to out winter them. But poaching is a problem with out wintering.

We also reduced cow numbers by half since converting. It’s a low cost low output system, I suppose with the off farm job you will still be ok. I reckon the majority of organic beef farmers are working off farm.

A straw bedded shed might be a better option as the bought in straw would help with soil fertility. Depends on local availability though. Slats are very convenient, there’s no argument there. Woodchip might be another option if you’re in a place to get it easier than straw. But again for organics it can’t be recycled wood, there’s usually varnish, bits of metal etc in it.

One last thing about organics is the paperwork, it’s another ball ache keeping the organic inspector happy along with the bord bia inspector and dept happy. To be fair they you give you 2 years to get things right.

Albert Johnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121339621#Comment_121339621

A handy bit of a shed and a few bales of fodder would give you more scope as to when to start buying. Granted you've a bit more work involved especially with a dry shed as regards keeping them clean as well as feeding them but it would only be for a few weeks. You'd probably get small numbers turned out earlier if you had them and it would mean that you might get them sold earlier in the autumn before the glut begins.

If you could put in a few lighter lads (circa 250kg) after Xmas and got them to grass early in the springtime they shouldn't be far behind what you'd normally buy and hopefully at a different price. From the beginning of February on there's lads looking for cattle to graze up the country and once you come to Paddy's day the local summer grazer buyer is starting out. April is peak time for grass fever so I'd like to have my business done before then.

Granted it's hard to put a bundle of stock together in January as marts are smaller but the online buying is useful for keeping an eye on things. The last week or 2 before Xmas often brings a bit of value as there's more stock about compared to January. A lot of lad's don't want making work for themselves over the festivities and if you had the time to get stock settled in and the routine underway it could put a start in the job. However it could be a long haul to keep them in a dry shed from Xmas till turnout depending on you're setup.

n1st

I'm part time farming 50 acres beef only, weanlings, summer grazing.

No issue getting 20 weanlings summer grazing without any additives.

Gain 100kg each easily over 8 months or so, so possibly 250 euro margin on each animal.

Obviously this is risky. Costs are low but require prices to stay stable, price of weanling is highest in spring, moving random cattle in each year increases risk of disease. Having said that I have had no issue in the past 3 years.

I'm trying something different from this year on, 9 X non continentals outwintered and feeding silage from slatted shed.

Siamsa Sessions

Could the OP consider setting a few acres of fodder rape on the good ground and out-wintering weanlings on that from November to March?

I'm doing it and it suits me, albeit lots of muck.

You'd have to reseed the field when you're done so that's another aspect that'd have to fit the system.

Numbers-wise: I keep 25-ish dairy-cross weanlings on around 3-4 acres of fodder rape. They eat around 60 bales of silage (a bale every two days) and I give them around 1.5kg/head of meal.

Doesn't suit everyone but just throwing some figures up in case it might suit. You'd have the cattle for 12 months then rather than just 7 months, so a better chance to let them increase in value.

n1st

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121340879#Comment_121340879

The outwintering option is an option I think if you reduce your numbers.

With the additional income from organic then I believe there is an option to reduce the numbers.

I've just done the maths again in LUs and for 50 acres I only require 2 fully grown bullocks in order to get the schemes. Replacements required obviously. My plan is to keep 6 to 9 bullocks, outwintered with the 50 acres open. Kill 3 each year, buying replacement weanlings each Autumn.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121340439#Comment_121340439

Think the P is around 1k a tonne.

and the K is 1600 a tonne.

Expensive stuff! But decent nutrients return on paper.

Belongamick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121340884#Comment_121340884

This is exactly my plan Albert.

farmer2018

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121338891#Comment_121338891

Do you the 60% shed grant for organics?

Stationmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121347145#Comment_121347145

Yea, pretty sure you do.

farmer2018

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121348093#Comment_121348093

Thats excellent if you do

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121340271#Comment_121340271

Getting the PH of your fields right with lime will help your silage fields, you’ll grow enough silage if you can get slurry out. You are allowed to import cattle slurry in Organics but not pig slurry. Organics is all about matching the number of cattle you keep to the amount of grass/silage you can grow. Grass will grow without fertilizer, it just takes longer.