Performance in modern games

at the gates

Gaming is insanely frustrating these days. Looking forward to that new release? Don't bother because you're better off picking it up in 6 months when it's actually enjoyable to play. Spider man 2 is the first game i've bought new in **** ages because nearly everything is a disaster at launch.

Thought that new robocop game looked cool. Console performance is apparently rubbish. What a surprise. Another one to come back to in months. I don't have a backlog. I have a backlog of games i want to play that i'm waiting to be **** fixed lol.

Do you folks just generally wait for sales and patches on games or take the chance and jump in when new stuff releases?

johnny_ultimate

In general, this console gen is actually an improvement over the two previous gens, where performance was often dire. Most first-party and a lot of third games have delivered really excellent performance in the gen so far (with some notable exceptions in first-party, like Redfall at launch or the most recent Pokemon games). If anything, a lengthy cross-gen period meant games like God of War, Forza Horizon and the Insomniac games have been driven by exceptionally good performance, and smaller titles like Returnal or Hi-Fi Rush have been absolutely stunning technical and artistic powerhouses. 60 FPS or higher performance modes have become a lot more common.

But with cross-gen now over, there are some games pushing the limits of tech and suffering some performance woes. It definitely seems there's work to be done to get Unreal Engine 5 titles up to snuff (including Robocop), as a lot of the more punishing titles have been using that tech. FSR2 on consoles isn't up to DLSS or PC quality and so there are big compromises to image quality - and even then they're not guaranteeing consistent performance. There's also been a handful of just badly optimized games, like Gotham Knights and Jedi Survivor, and only some of them are getting patched properly (like Jedi Survivor). But that'll always be the way, and cutting-edge games like Alan Wake 2 show what the machines are capable of when the requisite care is paid to polishing console performance. TBH, there's no reason to not wait until performance reports from the likes of Digital Foundry are released to decide if and when to play a game.

If anything, it's PC that has struggled more than consoles in recent times, as there have really been some unacceptably poor ports and issues there. PC gaming has been in a bad place for the last year or two, and while there are some exceptional games, a few too many AAA games have launched in unacceptable states, even allowing for the extra complexity of PC development.

SuperBowserWorld

Nintendo AAA is the only stuff I ever buy when it comes out. It's usually polished as much as the console can handle. Physical price is usually as low as it goes. Always drops by about a tenner at release time or soon after.

Other stuff I've tried on GamePass. My GamePass sub is over now so ...

I get games when they are really cheap and as good as they are going to get on current consoles. E.g. AC Origins, Witcher 3, Cyberpunk, less than 20 quid inc. 60 FPS, few bugs DLCs included etc etc.

at the gates

It's true Johnny, the pc space is even worse! And it's part of the reason i'm reluctant to upgrade my ancient 1070. Are you a console gamer only or console and pc? You're spot on about running into trouble after cross gen. Fsr 2 is not up to it . They need to start utilizing fsr 3 on consoles. Fast. Nearly every ue5 game so far has had big issues on console.

In general I think we're in big trouble with the consoles going forward. Imagine the likes of the witcher 4? That could run like cyberpunk did on ps4! Yeah thank god for digital foundry. Always look to them for the best performance reviews. They're a godsend.

at the gates

@SuperBowserWorld Yep can't go wrong with nintendo. Always supremely polished. Considering getting a nintendo console for the first time in years when they release a new one. Dunno if that's just a rumor or it's actually happening?

SuperBowserWorld

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121311751#Comment_121311751

Next year probably most definitely. And if it's backwards compatible and bumps up the performance of stuff like BOTW and TOTK then it would be a good time to jump on.

Amazon Warehouse had refurbished Switches, as new, for less than 100 euro recently. I think they might do that again over that Black Friday period. It's a great console. Also, always buy physical games for it, as you can sell, share, swap them. Digital and Nintendo is a PITA.

at the gates

@SuperBowserWorld Ok, physical is the only way to go with nintendo so. Cheers 👍️

at the gates

Posted this in a dead thread i think. Does anyone know if smyths have a set day that they change their game prices or is it always random?

They have some great price drops but are always sold out for home delivery!

one armed dwarf

My biggest issue on the console side is image quality and motion stability tbh. I can accept a 30fps game, but unfortunately on console a lot of these games are turning into porridge as you move the camera around. FFXVI is a particularly bad offender, which had hideous amounts of motion blur at release but even with that mitigate the FSR just destroys detail.

Frankly I just think the main consoles are very underpowered and a lot of it is due to inadequacy of the AMD hardware when it comes to ray tracing and reconstruction, which are far better on the nvidia side. I think neither of the two consoles should really be bothering implementing RT technologies, or maybe Insomniac should share some of their secrets with others cause they seem to implement it rather well.

Feels nice to play Alan Wake II on a 4090. The presentation is so critical to what that game is going for

johnny_ultimate

TBH I think it's the first console gen in a while where the machines are actually very reasonable in terms of their price:performance. The PS5 and XBSX are very smartly designed machines, nowhere near as compromised as the previous gen. The SSD tech is still ahead of anything on PC. A lot of well-engineered games run comparable to PC, some even going into proper high frame rate territory. God of War Ragnarok is as close to a full-fat PC port as I've played on a console - it might not be the absolute cutting edge, but it looks and plays fantastic (shame the game itself is so uninspired :P). It doesn't help that the PC market is hilariously dysfunctional at the moment, with GPU prices still pretty absurd relative to previous gens. You'd hope a 4090 would have the chops, as the thing costs several months average rent.

But the problems are boiling down to individual games (and a particular engine in UE5) more than a cross-gen issue. FFXVI is far from ideal in either mode. But then you see something like Spider-Man 2 or even Alan Wake 2 and consoles and it just shows well-optimised games can still feel a full generation ahead of many other titles being released. Like Digital Foundry though, I definitely think a 'pro' refresh with bespoke upscaling tech - as has been speculated for a PS5 Pro - could do a lot for the games that do want to push heavy ray-tracing or UE5's more advanced tools.

No doubt the console makers should be looking towards Nvidia though, as they're obviously blitzing the competition at the moment. Nintendo apparently already is. Even on a 3070 in Alan Wake 2 I'm getting 30-60 FPS with excellent image quality / full ray-tracing and path-tracing for the most part, only having to turn it off during the forest area as it's so demanding. For all Nvidia's plethora of faults (not least the comical pricing of the 40xx gen), it's hard to argue with the stunning results of their upscaling and RT tech.

Retr0gamer

Honestly think the console manufacturers will go with AMD again. NVIDIA will be charging too much for their chipset and honestly don't need the console market as they have such a massive lead on AI which is where they make most of their profits and appease the shareholders. AMD need that console business and I can see them undercutting NVIDIA.

The nintendo relationship is weird as it benefitted NVIDIA as they had a surplus of shield chipsets. It will be interesting if they go with NVIDIA after the next switch iteration. There's also apple who seem to be well ahead of other chip manufacturers in many areas.

Icyseanfitz

My question is when if at all will the price drop on the current consoles, 500-600 for a ps5 is absurd imo, but I suppose PC gaming is equally as overpriced now

Retr0gamer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121316214#Comment_121316214

It's the nature of corporate capitalism now. I doubt there will be many price drops as the current trend is to overcharging and keep reaping insane profits. Sony is set to have it's biggest Xmas for the PS5 ever, might even be their biggest Xmas ever so don't expect a price drop, if ever.

Icyseanfitz

Crazy that a 3 year old console hasn't had a price drop, but I guess I am expecting that to be the norm like precious generations where as you said current tech has gone absurd with regards pricing. I'd love a ps5 but I am not paying new prices, might get a second hand one.

Retr0gamer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121316412#Comment_121316412

Previously the amount of chips was reduced as the console aged and made the systems cheaper but chip manufacture and development is so advanced now that it would take until the end of a console life cycle so doesn't make sense.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121316412#Comment_121316412

Pretty sure it actually had a price rise somewhere along the line, due to the production costs rising and shortage of parts/chips. It might drop by this time next year if there's a Pro version as suspected, but until then it's unlikely to see any reduction, even down to the original RRP of 500.

Potential-Monke

In fairness, they didn't have a massive price increase like we're seeing elsewhere. A 24 pack of diet coke is twice the price it used to be, meaning the PS5/XSX if they followed the trend would be close to €1k each. For me, they're excellent value as I'm getting over 2000 hours per year out of them. That's excellent value for money imo.

God of War, Spiderman, Ghost of Tsushima, Ratchet and Clank and many others show that games made well won't have a performance issue. The problem is on the dev side imo, which is no doubt caused by crunch and corporate expectations. Given the time, games can end up being what they should have been or more, ie: Cyberpunk, NMS and inevitably Loadfield Starfield.

I'll be picking up the PS5 Pro, hoping for 60fps RT modes as standard then, because going from Spiderman 2 to Arkham Knights just highlights how much better 60+ fps is.

Retr0gamer

I remember you could get a SNES with Mario all stars for 99 pounds three years after launch. That console actually had exclusives 😜

Retr0gamer

I remember you could get a SNES with Mario all stars for 99 pounds three years after launch. That console actually had exclusives 😜

Icyseanfitz

I remember the 360 could be got for like 200 with a game bundle and extras, Sony tried to release the ps3 for 600 and everyone lost their ****, now it's as if companies can release stuff for any god damn price they want and people justify it.

SuperBowserWorld

Refurbished Switch < 100 quid recently from Amazon Warehouse. Perfect condition. Super Mario Wonder, 50 quid, exquisite performance and polish. 😁 Finally don't have to share a Switch with the kids.

Also, Series S will probably be 200 quid or less refurbished this black friday. So it's possible to get value.

Writingskin

I feel your frustration! It's become almost a norm for games to release with bugs and performance issues. Waiting for sales and patches has become a safer bet these days. I've found myself doing the same. It's not only more cost-effective but also ensures a smoother gaming experience. Though it's tempting to jump in on release day for the hype, it's often not worth the headaches. How about you? Any games that have been worth the day-one buy recently?

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121317918#Comment_121317918

The PS3 was definitely too expensive and Sony really ballsed up that launch, but in fairness the 360 launched with no wireless (adapter sold seperately), no rechargeable controllers, only a 20GB hard drive, and had a HD-DVD drive rather than Bluray. It was an amazing console for the price it was, but a direct comparison to the PS3 isn't really fair. Whereas with the PS4/Xbox1, and then the PS5/XSX, both consoles have been fairly close in terms of specs/performance.

I think the current price point for both consoles is pretty reasonable for their performance, and is roughly in line with what most experts thought it should cost based on the specs/architecture pre-launch. Both Sony and MS are very possibly losing money on the consoles and gaining it back with peripherals etc, which I think has usually been the case for the first few years of a consoles lifetime anyway.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121316214#Comment_121316214

Actually it's not absurd, it's about the same as PS4 adjusted for inflation, and cheaper than PS3 again, adjusted for inflation. And the widely accepted narrative is that they sell the new consoles at a loss for a while until economy of scale takes over and turn it into a small profit, but the main money maker are the games and subscriptions - where they get a 30% cut for doing practically nothing. That's where the disguising greed is.

johnny_ultimate

Yeah, I actually think the price of the consoles has been pretty reasonable this gen, and you can't forget there are cheaper variants of both the Playstation and Xbox too (considerably cheaper in the case of the Xbox Series S). They weren't anywhere near as conservative as the PS4 / XB1 gen either, with some genuinely solid tech foundations. Obviously, PC tech has overtaken them, but not to the same extent and certainly not at the same cost level as previous gens. The inflation in PC GPUs is on a different level entirely - €400 for a 970 vs €600-700 for a 4070, for example.

Lots to complain about with current-gen prices - like software and peripheral and subscription costs - and obviously price cuts would be nice (although there have been some decent deals on PS5 over the last year - hopefully they become permanent in the next year). But I also think margins on the hardware itself probably are fairly tight overall, given what we're seeing across the rest of the tech industry as well. Never discount some amount of corporate greed, of course :)

Cordell

In the PC market they don't have the luxury to sell the hardware as a loss leader. Some amount of greed is fine, profit is fine, that's how the tech moves forward. But the greed of digital distribution services like Steam is somethin else altogether. They not only take an obscene cut, you don't even get a proper license, you can't sell or lend your game as you could do with actual physical disks, and that's why I have no moral issue with buying cheap from the grey market sites like CDKeys.

Icyseanfitz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121320018#Comment_121320018

I'm pretty sure both ps4 and ps3 had large reductions 3 years after launch, unlike ps5 which has actually increased in price past the original msrp.

Potential-Monke

Ah but covid and wars are keeping the price of everything up these days. How much is genuine vs greedflation is up for debate. I'd also assume they're keeping them as cheap as possible, otherwise MS would already have a hefty price reduction to gain some over PS, but they too increased the price so I'd assume that's why they're not following the cheaper as it ages method. Nintendo have been at it for years/decades at this point. The only time their hardware drops in price is when it's on the way out. Even then...

Tis 3 years old now, but adjusting for inflation, we might be really lucky they're as "cheap" as they currently are. And that's 'Merican inflation, so add another 10% for the craic for Ireland:

https://www.ign.com/articles/comparing-the-price-of-every-game-console-with-inflation

I'm sure it's more complicated than price then vs now, ie: cost of living, but still interesting all the same. Neo-Geo and 3DO taking the proverbial!