Busses from Galway to Clifden - a few questions

Geuze

I have a few questions about the two services.

BE 419

https://www.buseireann.ie/timetables/419-1694536776.pdf

Citylink 923

https://www.citylink.ie/uploads/documents/GeneralDocuments/Galway_-_Clifden_Route_923_30-09-21_2.pdf

Why are there two services? Should they not be combined?

Is the Citylink 923 a commerical service or a PSO?

Does Citylink accept Leap cards?

I am surprised to see there is one, yes just one, BE 419 to Clifden on Sundays.

Yet there are 6x Citylinks.

Does anybody know why?

I see that Citylink plan to grow from 12 to 20 busses per day?

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/138247/citylink-expands-range-of-services-to-connemara

Do they mean 12 each way?

THANKS

Geog1234

duplicate posting removed

LXFlyer

419 is PSO

923 is commercial and does not accept LEAP.

They are planning to expand the 923 from 6 services each way to 10 each way.

Geog1234

LXFlyer has kindly answered the questions which somehow got lost in cyberspace in my reply last night!

On the matter of the single Sunday service it was commonplace for a route to only have one journey from an outlying town or area early on Sunday evenings. Traditionally the purpose of such a service is to provide a link to a bigger town/city to allow workers and students travel back to the larger centres as the weekend draws to a close. Thanks to Connecting Ireland these token Sunday services are now being replaced by either the same timetable as on weekdays (or by several journeys each way). But there are still several routes with no Sunday service (e.g. BÉ 187: Oldcastle - Kells). And for an unusual route check out Bus Éireann 366 in West Waterford (nowadays superficial given the frequent Local Link) but for a few years between circa 2010 and 2015 was Lismore's only bus.

Geuze

If there is enough demand for Citylink to plan to expand services by 50%+, why isn't BE also doing that?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121301302#Comment_121301302

That’s a question for the NTA as they dictate PSO service levels.

Any changes would be part of the Connecting Ireland programme and that’s a four year project.

Vic_08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121301302#Comment_121301302

The BE service is PSO so is under the direction of the NTA who decide the service level.

As there is a commercial opeartor on the route they will not increase subsidised competition as this might harm the commercial operator's revenue. Protecting the business of registered commercial operators is paramount to the Irish bus regulation framework, it is given prioroty over other considerations such as providing good public services.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121301784#Comment_121301784

Ironically the private operator is offering a far superior service to the public operator. As do private operators on many routes throughout the country.

And I LOL at people laying the blame of not enough PSO servers at the feet of the NTA! The NTA only took over the operation of the PSO licenses a few years ago. BE had the power to offer better services for years before that, but they didn’t.

And what is the excuse for terrible BE Expressway services on the likes of Dublin to Cork, etc. No direct non stop service on the motorway, no toilets (in the past), no service after 6pm between Cork and Dublin back in the day, absolutely crazy stuff.

The truth is BE has always been a **** show and the private operators have been one of the best things to happen to transport in rural Ireland and between our cities.

Mrs OBumble

If a commercial operator shows that they can operate a service successful, then why is the PSO allowed to continue on the route?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121303241#Comment_121303241

I don't think they are the same route. Both are Galway - Clifton but it looks like the BE bus stops in way more places.

TranslatorPS

Citylink's 923 is far, far more direct—it doesn't stray away from the N59 at all. BE's 419 may stray in different directions depending on the day of the week, providing those weird services to Leenaun, Roundstone, and what not, and as mentioned above, has a good few more stops.

Notably however, four out of the seven 419 trips terminate in Oughterard (three on the weekends, as the 7am lap doesn't operate then, ignoring the vastly different service levels on Sundays).

So, to answer @Mrs OBumble's question—the reason for the 419 operating despite, or merely alongside, Citylink's commercial 923 is in the name itself: it's a Public Service Obligation route, it's the government's role to provide such a service, and if things go haywire (which the pandemic has proven), the service remains, while commercial operations are at a constant risk.

bk

it's a Public Service Obligation route, it's the government's role to provide such a service, and if things go haywire (which the pandemic has proven), the service remains, while commercial operations are at a constant risk

While I agree with everything else you said, just on this point, we did also see the government subsidise and support the commercial operators (including BE Expressway too).

Of course you wouldn’t want to do that in normal times, but during an extraordinary circumstance like Covid it was either support every company, public or private or see vast areas of the country lose service.

TranslatorPS

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121310283#Comment_121310283

Certainly, that was the case, but I like to think of the subsidies as a side effect of the commercial nature of these operations having put them in significant danger ;)

thebiglad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121303241#Comment_121303241

There's always a risk the commercial operator will change its service/rates once it has seen off the PSO offering or withdraw totally at short notice, leaving potentially no service.

bk

Certainly, that was the case, but I like to think of the subsidies as a side effect of the commercial nature of these operations having put them in significant danger ;)

That doesn't really make sense, the semi state companies were in just as much danger of shutting down. Fare income collapsed across the industry, so unless the government agreed to radically increase the subsidies, to the tune of €600 million, then BE, DB, etc. would absolutely have gone bankrupt, they would have easily needed to lay off well over half their staff. There is no way they could of continued operating with the 2019 levels of subsidies during covid.

I think people forget that CIE/BE/DB/IR aren't actually public companies. They are a semi state, which yes are mostly owned by the government, but are legally required to operate like any other commercial company, balancing the books etc. They can go bankrupt, as we saw during the recession they came dangerously close to going bankrupt and had to greatly cut back on services and staff to avoid that.

Ironically during Covid BE and DB's commercial arms cut back on services more then most privates, cutting the likes of the 747 and various Expressway routes!

There's always a risk the commercial operator will change its service/rates once it has seen off the PSO offering or withdraw totally at short notice, leaving potentially no service.

Yep, absolutely, that is why I prefer when there is competition on a route, with two operators like on some of the intercity routes. Competition keeps people on their toes. I don't like monopolies, whether public or private, I think both are unhealthy.

Of course nothing stopping BE/DB from cutting back on routes like we saw with various Expressway and 747 routes during covid or Network Direct during the recession.

And given the way the market is structured now, with the NTA contracting out all PSO routes, there is nothing stopping BE/DB from giving up a PSO license or deciding to not compete for a future license. So really no guarantees.

BTW Generally you won't have a PSO service and a commercial service competing on the same route. The NTA tends not to issue commercial licenses if there is already a PSO route operating it. While similar and with some overlap, the 419 and 923 aren't actually the same route, they have different stops and serve different roads. Otherwise the 923 license wouldn't have been issued.

There are many PSO routes around the country that private operators would LOVE to get a license for and offer a competitive service to the PSO route, with no subsidy required, like the many commuter routes into Dublin. They would likely offer a better service. But the NTA won't give them a license.

Ironically despite what people say here, the NTA generally protects the PSO routes from competition.

TranslatorPS

That doesn't really make sense, the semi state companies were in just as much danger of shutting down.

My statement would make sense anywhere else except for the time when DB and BE were still on net contracts. If my memory has things in the correct chronological order, I think the pandemic was pretty much one of the last nails in the coffin to that, switching the two companies to gross contracts like they should've been on for years.