Claim against me

irish_major

Hi there,

Wondering if anyone has heard of something similar to the situation I find myself in.

Involved in a collision in late 2021 with a pedestrian on a scooter, I was inching out onto the footpath from an apartment. Was very careful, as I was inching forward I noticed commotion on the street - he had come flying down a hill, tried to stop himself when he saw the car, barely touched off my wheel and he broke his hand. I was not certain I hit him, he was in a daze and also didn't think I hit him. I got him to get an ambulance and away he was gone.

Received a phone call a week later from the Guards to say he lodged an official complaint, I knew it was with the intention of making a claim. Immediately informed my insurance company, they came out took statements, my statement said I was not sure whether he collided with the car or not, they also inspected the car for damage etc. They told me they'd view the CCTV and be in touch. I also informed them in my statement that there was a garda investigation. Gave the gardai a statement in the presence of my solicitor, the cctv showed him touching into the wheel of my car and then coming off his scooter - he had already lost control prior to hitting into my car. I did not believe I was in the wrong upon viewing the CCTV however my solicitor advised me that the law was black and white here, I was the one in control of a vehicle on a footpath and advised me to plead guilty to careless driving and that I'd receive 5 points and it would be the end of it. That's exactly what I did in February of this year and thought no more of it until I received a solicitors letter last month advising me I was being sued by the injured party. Immediately informed my insurance company of this and that I had been convicted of careless driving.

Insurance company are claiming I breached contract by not informing them in February of the conviction. They are saying they will pay the claim in full and seek full repayment from me. This seems incredulous to me, anyone ever heard of something similar? I fear that this is going to be a substantial claim, how could I be on the hook for this when I informed them fully at the time? They never followed up with me again and I assumed the matter had been settled until I received the solicitors letter last month.

Immediately contacted

Honestly OP, the best advice I think anyone could give you is go back and talk to your solicitor.

Eggs For Dinner

If I'm reading the timeline correctly, you notified your insurer immediately when the accident occurred and them again immediately when you received notification of the claim. Unless there are any other undisclosed developments between those dates involving the claim, they cannot refuse you indemnity. In other words, you didn't do anything, or withheld anything, which affected the outcome of the claim. Therefore, they cannot seek recovery from you.

There is, however, a separate issue with your cover. It appears you did not inform them of the conviction, which is a breach of contract and they may cancel the policy back to the time of the breach. Given that cover everything appears to have been above board AT THE TIME OF THE ACCIDENT, you shouldn't have a worry on thae claim front

irish_major

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121199080#Comment_121199080

Thank you for your read on the situation. I have of course contacted my solicitor who scarcely believed what I was telling him. He was outraged. It has caused my a lot of sleepless nights since the insurance company contacted me to tell me they would be seeking to reclaim costs. I will name and shame the company afterwards as nobody ever deserves to be put through this stress. I wouldn't be surprised if the claim racks up rather large bill.

My solicitor is currently working through all the information, he felt as though an insurance expert and arbitration will be needed, although he hasn't gone through all the information I have provided him. There is a breach of policy as you have rightly described and the insurance company cancelled my policy for this reason, I had no complaints there. I cannot understand how any reasonable person would claim the lack of telling them about the conviction means I am liable to pay the insurance company back for their costs.

All this stress and cost of solicitors and insurance experts and a barrister if it goes to arbitration is hell. I think they were hoping I wouldn't defend myself and they could slap a judgement on me down the line.

Eggs For Dinner

Do you know the level of the person within the insurer who has taken this decision? There are far too many staff within the industry without the technical training for the level of authority they are viven.

irish_major

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121199485#Comment_121199485

It was an email from the claims handler, I called him afterwards quite calmly and told him it was outrageous but my solicitor advised me not to speak to him again. It could totally be off his own bat and maybe one solicitors letter will be the end of it. I'm obviously planning for the worst case scenario. Surely he wouldn't have just sent that off though knowing the ramifications it would cause me

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121198554#Comment_121198554

I see this differently.

Solicitor is on a gravy carousel here, talking about barristers arbitration etc, every move he makes is costing you and lining up his mates for snout room at your money trough.

The breach of cover, as posted out earlier, is for non disclosure and SFA to do with the prang.

Personally, not via the solicitor, lodge a formal complaint, in writing, by registered post to the CEO, by you with the insurance company.

They will have a required response period on their website so tell them that if they dont reply within that timeframe you will escalated to ombudsman

It does not need to be long as they have all the facts.

If they still play hardball, and reject your complaint, lodge a compliant with https://www.fspo.ie/

To engage with https://www.fspo.ie/

you need to have exhausted the insurance company complaint procedure first.

re I will name and shame the company afterwards as nobody ever deserves to be put through this stress.

Will achieve nothing.

Stick to the task in hand and take direct actions that you have control over and don't be relying on intermediaries

Good hunting and get some exercise, long walks, and rest, and little booze.

Been through similar, main thing is be in control of your actions

Eggs For Dinner

The decision to refuse indemnity and seek recovery is never the final decision of a claims handler. It is taken at a senior level. Before any complaint or legal engagement, request that your insurer outline their position in writing. Only then can you decide a course of action.

Eggs For Dinner

The refusal of indemnity letter is a formal document and must contain the following

Reason for declining indemnity

Complaints procedures, including contact details

Information regarding Financial Services & Pensions Ombudsman contact information and procedures.

irish_major

Ok thanks for all your helpful comments. I have yet to receive the official letter but I think I will get started on the complaints process direct with the company and keep my solicitor on a reign until that process concludes

Eggs For Dinner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121201696#Comment_121201696

I wouldn't until you have the official refusal of indemnity letter. Did the email definitely state a decision has been made or does it say we reserve our rights...?

Eldudeson

I'd agree with the insurance company that by not informing them of the conviction and penalty points that your insurance from that point is invalid.

Given that the accident happened 2 years ago when you were fully compliant and insured, I can't understand how they can be seeking costs from anything then. There's probably some small print in the 18 pages of Terms and Conditions that let them do it!

irish_major

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121202123#Comment_121202123

I don't have an official letter. Just an email from the claims handler that says they'll be seeking full repayment of all their costs from me.

coylemj

I'd seriously query the competence of the OP's solicitor. Who suggested that the law was 'black and white' on the issue' and advised him to plead guilty to careless driving in a case where (the OP says) the motor cyclist had already lost control before he collided with the OP's car. Leaving the issue of civil liabiliaty to one side for a moment, what conceivable criminal liabilty or negligence can you lay at the OP's door? No way was he guilty of careless driving.

I recall a case a few years ago where a car driver was inching his way out of his drive when he was in collision with a cyclist who was riding on the footpath. Naturally, there was a claim. But this guy had a solicitor with a backbone. He submitted to the judge that, short of employing a man to walk in front of him with a red flag, there was nothing the car driver could have done to avoid the collision. The submission was accepted and the case dismissed.

Eggs For Dinner

The issue of liability is done and dusted, given how it played out in court. It's now about securing indemnity for the OP

irish_major

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121202297#Comment_121202297

I basically agree with this but I did also just want it over and done with and I didn't want to drag out the court issues. I had a fair idea there would be a claim based on my initial read so I didn't really care about the conviction. Not too mad at my solicitor but I think I'd have stood a very good chance of winning. Anyway, it's irrelevant to the claim in my opinion.

I haven't gotten an official correspondence from anyone senior in the company, am I jumping the gun by going on the offensive and asking them to clarify their position? I think I've nothing to lose on that based on the claims handlers email.

Eggs For Dinner

I'm trying to tease this out in my head from the perspective of the insurer. There is provision in the conditions of a policy to prohibit the policyholder from taking any action which would prejudice the insurer's position.In other words, doing something, or failing to do something which affects the outcome of a claim. Examples would be trying to settle personally with the 3rd party, or failing to pass on correspondence received from the claimant.

In this instance, pleading guilty to the prosecution certainly increased the chances of any claimant being successful. However, the OP did not invite the prosecution and the insurer could not have halted it. The insurer would also have to show that a not guilty plea would have resulted in a different outcome. Add in there was no claim at this stage. I think insurers are clutching at straws, but you will not know their tack until (if) they formally refuse indemnity

kirk.

You should have notified the insurance immediately after the accident and then same after the conviction

Not helping yourself there

Nigzcurran

I know you pleaded guilty but surely the guy shouldn't have been riding a scooter on the footpath?

irish_major

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121204248#Comment_121204248

Thanks for this very helpful comment.

I notified them immediately after the accident, I didn't notify them about the conviction as it didn't even enter my head. I obviously would have if I thought of it but nothing I can do about that now. I also do not see how this had any impact whatsoever of the insurance claim. The facts of the claim don't change and I notified the insurance company of the conviction as soon as I received a solicitors letter about the claim.

Not having any knowledge of the claims process I assumed the insurance company had dealt with and settled it. They poorly informed me of the process from the day I informed them of the incident

kirk.

You said a week after the accident

CramCycle

Your solicitor basically handed it to the injured person on a platter by telling you to plead guilty straight off the bat. No way he didn't know that was coming, I'd be looking for another solicitor to be honest. I realise all solicitors are qualified but there are a lot who are just not great at their jobs.

irish_major

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121204373#Comment_121204373

I agree again, I wasn't thinking about the claim too much at this point. I was just stressed about dealing with the guards and the court case. Can't change anything about that now.

I've gotten a different solicitor for the insurance case.

To the pain in the hole who said by delaying a week in telling the insurance company is a problem get a grip. The only time I was aware that he was claiming I hit him was when the guards contacted me. I hadn't known before that as I clearly explained. Would you contact your insurance company immediately after you see someone fall on the road?

kirk.

Whatever you need to read up your policy documents in future to avoid problems

The wording is usually "notify any incident that may give rise to a claim"

Looks like you sleepwalked into this mess pleading guilty as well

coylemj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121204182#Comment_121204182

I think it's stretching things a little to suggest that pleading guilty to careless driving could be used by your insurance against you. You have to treat the criminal case and the court case as a separate exercise and no way should you need to be looking over your shoulder and worrying about your insurance company and their money.

But I can see where the insurance company might feel agggrieved that the OP never told them that he got a summons arsing out of the accident. Because they may have provided the OP with free legal representation in an attempt to minimize the chance of a conviction. That is where the OP may have fallen down - not telling them he got a summons and accepting that 'black and white' nonsense advice from his solicitor.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121202297#Comment_121202297

a case where (the OP says) the motor cyclist had already lost control before he collided with the OP's car.

that may not be relevant; if you lose control braking due to the actions of another, it may not matter that you've lost control by the time you collide with them.

a colleague got a payout for coming off his bike, when he didn't come in contact with the offending car (the oncoming motorist had turned right across his path). he lost control and didn't collide with her, but she was still liable as she'd driven recklessly.

AnRothar

I'd seriously query the competence of the OP's solicitor. Who suggested that the law was 'black and white' on the issue' and advised him to plead guilty to careless driving in a case where (the OP says) the motor cyclist had already lost control before he collided with the OP's car. 

From the OP

a pedestrian on a scooter,

This leads me to believe its not a motorcyclist but an unpowered scooter or just as likely an eScooter.

Also from the OP.

I was inching out onto the footpath

solicitor advised me that the law was black and white here, I was the one in control of a vehicle on a footpath

The "incident" occurred Footpath which drove the Solicitors initial advice.

irish_major

By way of update on this - After receiving a strongly letter from my solicitor they reversed their decision and acknowledge the indemnity in place. It was a total stunt by them to just try scare the life out of me and hope I wouldn't act. My solicitor actually did a lot of work, he had seen this before and was getting ahead of it, he was sure they'd take it to arbitration just to allow legal bills to rack up so he began work with an insurance expert and they aligned all of the evidence before writing to the insurance company. He worked diligently, gathered all the evidence and wrote the letter to request them to reverse their decision. They did and the stress was relieved for me, although I fully believed indemnity should be in place it was still stressful having it hang over me.

One final annoyance is that they're refusing to cover my legal costs even though it was their fault! Might battle them more on this but I just want it all behind me at this point. If I had my time back again I probably would have written them a strongly worded letter similar to what the solicitor did but they might have just thrown that in the bin. The fact I employed a well known solicitor might have carried weight but maybe it didn't.

F insurance companies has been my take away from the experience.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122546541#Comment_122546541

A much improved result.
Now get yourself a dashcam!