Westside - a decarbonisation zone

zell12

Speaking in the Dáil recently, our TD referred

Catherine Connolly: I am often very critical of it, but Galway City Council did its job in 2021 regarding a decarbonisation zone. It set out the zone, but two and a half years later nothing has happened. I live in the Claddagh and know Galway very well. I was born and bred there. I see huge opportunities for community led projects to make communities independent, but we need an analysis from the Department in terms of how decisions are being made.

Went and looked it up.

Has anyone heard of this before? Seems a silent plan, no publicity, any signs of movement? Westside is smog central on winter evenings, along with snakes of car traffic. How on earth is decarbonising going to happen?

I heard of it way back. Haven't seen or heard of any progress though.

It's ripe for improvement though. The air quality is horrific on calm days,especially in Coogan, Corrib and Camilaun parks

topcat77

Westside pitches has really bad air quality on a calm winter day. all the chimney fumes settle there. I've been there with the kids and had to leave because it was so bad.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121192257#Comment_121192257

True. Not just the Chimney's here - the Seamus Quirke Road nearby is also a big contributor to the air quality there as well when we have those calm days (summer as well but especially in the winter when all those solid fuel fires are lit). A number of spots in the City are prone to this. Ballybane where Tesco is (bit of bowl there) The Headford Road junction as well on those calm days can also be very poor.

For anybody interested. Around 300 (see the X machine) households in Galway City are measuring air quality since last Monday the 2nd of October

https://www.cleanairtogether.ie/

berrecka

The decarbonisation zones come into effect after the council's climate action plan is adopted, which will be end of Feb 2024.

buzz11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121193003#Comment_121193003

What does "see the X machine" mean? I don't see it on the website

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121211316#Comment_121211316

Twitter. Originally meant to me 400 households - but looks like only 300 signed up to the NO2 air monitoring scheme https://www.cleanairtogether.ie/

From the most recent Chief Exec report to the council

zell12

"to co-create artistic outcomes ..experiential work through sound, sight and touch ..make tangible the quality of the air we share"

Whaa?

_Whimsical_

I have heard of it!

It is being used to justify the fact that only 127 parking spaces are to be provided for the new HSE Primary Care facility planned for the Seamus Quirke Road site - where the ESB station and Higgin's Builder Providers currently is. It will open onto Seamus Quirke Road. It's going be a 8 storey healthcare facility housing all outpatient psychiatric services, imaging (x-ray & MRI), physiotherapy, occupational therapy, basically the entire Shantalla clinic and some outpatient hospital services. Another 4 storey building will be built beside to house Tusla.

There will be 300 staff in n the primary care centre.

According to Catherine Connolly herself in her letter of objection to the council the proposed plans expect 800 users in total on site between health centre staff, patients, Tusla service users and users of a chemist & GP service included in the plans.

127 parking spaces are excepted to supply all parking need for staff and users.

Happy days though everyone, because there are plenty bike spaces planned and who doesn't attend for physio on a bike, or pack their granny off for an x-ray on the bus?

So basically they intend to create something much worse than the parking horror show of UCHG in another essential healthcare facility in the name of "climate action".

Oh and there is a massive accommodation development planned for the rest of the O'Higgin site with student apartments and houses.

The health care centre will be let to the HSE at 25 million over 20 years, and the rest of the site will be developed I assume by O'Higgin for dense housing.

But if it causes traffic issues, serious access issues for patients in need of health care that's ok because the climate will really benefit(?)... and just by coincidence so will former Mayor Higgins.

Even if we had the infrastructure to support public transport and bike transport is a healthcare facility the ideal place to seriously limit parking? Like, very few are physically able to attend for the services being provided here by bike or bus. What instead will happen is that as there'll be no parking for patients they will be dropped off by taxis/relations/friend who circle the area in the car while waiting or leave and come back to collect making 2 trips instead of 1 to Westside. It makes an utter joke of a decarbonisation zone, but also of a very much needed healthcare provision within the city.

https://connachttribune.ie/e50m-primary-care-centre-in-westside-gets-approval/

_Whimsical_

Wonder what the long term goal on a "decarbonisation zone" is really.

In the UK their decarbonisation zones(ULEZ) have seen people with non-electric cars charged 12 pounds per day for use of their own car.

The alternative option if you need car transport in these ULEZ areas has been to purchase an electric car which tends to be very expensive. In effect, it means in the UK that less well-off neighborhoods become car-free zones not by consensus or choice but by financial necessity.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121232459#Comment_121232459

How many bike spaces? Might need to wheel the trolley over to this place if all 4 Bikestands at ALDI in Westside are occupied in this Decarbonisation zone

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121233199#Comment_121233199

Well done on falling for the conspiracy theories.

@_Whimsical_ In the UK their decarbonisation zones(ULEZ) have seen people with non-electric cars charged 12 pounds per day for use of their own car.

The reality is that the only vehicles excluded from the ULEZs are petrol cars more than 17 years old and diesel cars more than 7 years old. Many even older cars are also allowed if they were among the ones that met the relevant standards before they were mandatory.

The idea that all but electric cars are banned is one promoted by the same cynical misanthropes that are presenting the 15 minute concept as akin to a concentration camp (literally) rather than something that gives people the option to access services close to their homes.

_Whimsical_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121233604#Comment_121233604

Well done on the silly and unnecessary condescension.

Neighbourhoods that are less well-off and who tend to own older cars are finding themselves unable to afford to have cars because it's near impossible to sell their older cars and the scrappage offered is inadequate when it comes to buying a newer car. It is accepted and referenced by both the Tories and Labour that it is causing difficulties for more financially challenged socioeconomic areas affected.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121233970#Comment_121233970

I'm pretty sure Westside is a voter stronghold for neither the Tories or Labour and unless there is evidence that the Westside is to become the first ULEZ in Ireland can we leave the UK stuff out of the thread as it has no relevance.

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121233970#Comment_121233970

So I make a contribution that is 100% factually correct, while you are amplifying a manifestly false conspiracy theorist talking point, but my post was the one that was 'silly and unnecessary'? OK, I guess.

I don't think 18 year old cars were easy to sell for anything more than a few hundred quid at any time and to try to lay that at the door of ULEZs is opportunistic misinformation. Owning a car has become much more expensive irrespective of whether you're in a ULEZ or not. My own car is more than a decade old, and I'm trying to keep it on the road for a another few years because it's worth next to nothing, and buying the current model of the exact same car nearly new would cost more than twice as much as what the one I have cost nearly new when I bought it. And that's got absolutely nothing to do with ULEZs that don't even exist in this country.

_Whimsical_

Where is the conspiracy theory? I was posing a question as to exactly what the meaning and long term implications of a non carbonized zone would be and used the one example of the implementation of that closest to home. I didn't suggest this would be implementation of the concept in Galway.

My points were valid and you accused me of "falling for a conspiracy theory". Why would I not refute your interpretation as you can mine?

Wading in to insult someone as "falling for a conspiracy theory" is silly and condescending, and a misunderstanding of the issue.

It's not about 17 Yr old cars, it's about long term, trying to sell cars that are 12/13/14 yrs old as future use for them has collapsed, as has money for them. What you might get for one now won't buy you a car in those areas that can be used for any reasonable period of time. Implications is that over a short period of years cars disappear from less well off areas. No one really disputes that.

Mrs OBumble

I'm pretty sure that the cycling evangelist's playbook suggests that calling someone a conspiracy-theory believer is one way to silence any disagreement. So don't take it personally.

In the scenario under discussion, I'd say that access limitation is part of demand management: one of the issues with integrated primary healthcare delivery is increased demand, to the service ends up costing more (instead of the predicted less) because it treats previously unidentified need. Making it harder to get there reduces this.

berrecka

Decarbonisation Zones are areas where the LA and community come together to bring down the areas emissions. One huge benefit will be the retrofitting of LA-owned social housing stock, of which Shantalla and Westside have much in need of being made more comfortable for residents. The idea of the DZ is that they will be a pilot area to bring down emissions, what works might be expanded to the rest of the city. Rather than making people pay to use their own old vehicles, DZs will facilitate initiatives such as community EVs and EV charging, as well as making it safer and more viable to use an alternative to the private car.

With regard to the Primary Care facility, isn't community healthcare moving towards a model of at-home care, so that the healthcare comes to the patients - no need for them to travel in in a lot of cases (obviously it depends on the particular service, x-rays wont be done at home). HSE Buses to the centres are probably going to be as well used as they are in the current Primary Care centre in St Francis, with patients mostly attending by community bus.

If staff parking were to become paid for at all workplaces, as has been proposed, Id imagine far less of the 300 odd staff will be bringing their cars to sit and wait outside for them to complete finish days work.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245888#Comment_121245888

Good post.

This Primary Care Centre will also be on the MAIN Public Transport Corridor in the City. (It also has a good cycle facilities but big multi-lane roundabouts either end of it)

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121193003#Comment_121193003

Video from EPA about Air Quality monitoring and the CleanAirTogether project

https://youtu.be/MWeInekc7KY?si=JWPjG4FntbySeEdP

2 pieces of good news in terms of air quality in the city

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/138257/galway-city-council-first-authority-to-eliminate-road-diesel-in-larger-fleet

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/138269/dpd-switches-entire-galway-city-fleet-to-electric

Afaik An Post are also nearly fully electric for their city fleet now too or if not they are not far off it

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121235350#Comment_121235350

@_Whimsical_ Where is the conspiracy theory?

The following statement from you is wholly untrue and closely mirrors conspiracy theory talking points.

"In the UK their decarbonisation zones(ULEZ) have seen people with non-electric cars charged 12 pounds per day for use of their own car.

The alternative option if you need car transport in these ULEZ areas has been to purchase an electric car which tends to be very expensive."

The reality is that you could purchase a 17 year old petrol car and have the same freedom to move through ULEZs as any electric car driver does.

The claim that only electric cars are allowed into ULEZs is deliberate misinformation that has been propagated by the same conspiracy theorists trying to convince people that ULEZs are part of a secret plan to introduce a concentration camp system where people are locked into a zone defined by a 15 minutes radius from their homes and legally forbidden from travelling outside it.

This recent Twitter post, which closely resembles what you wrote in your own post, went massively viral. 13.5m views of that tweet alone and then magnified by many times that on other social media channels. It was deliberately written to mislead and aimed at an international audience ($ equivalent dropped in), not just those in the UK. There's a comprehensive debunking of it here and more background here.

This kind of misinformation has seen gullible protesters on the streets, who actually own compliant cars, complaining that they are going to be prevented from driving yet, when asked, they haven't even checked whether their own car is compliant because they bought into the misinformation that only electric cars comply.

There is certainly some validity to your arguments about lower income people being priced out of driving, although I don't think there was ever a time when 12/13/14 year old cars could generally be expected to sell for more than the £2000 scrappage London is offering. And I think it's also worth considering that the fact that 40-50% of London households never had cars in the first place means this is really likely to impact a relatively small proportion of the population. But if you choose to couch valid arguments in conspiracy theory rhetoric, and post easily disprovable misinformation, you can't expect not to be called out on that.

My new favourite saying applies here too; 'if your argument was a strong one to begin with you wouldn't have to make stuff up to try to get your point across'.

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121235410#Comment_121235410

I've checked and this is the only time I've ever brought up conspiracy theories in any of these discussions. I don't think that anyone can argue that what was posted is anything other than a conspiracy theory, so your description of this as being part of some 'playbook' is well off the mark in my case.

On the other hand, there are many instances of posters being dismissed as 'cycling evangelists', 'True Believers' and 'fanatics' if they write something in support of active travel measures. One poster stands out in the frequency they throw around these terms as a disparagement to 'silence any disagreement'. I wonder who that could be?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ie/basics/projection

jackyjoe1

Westside? Sure most of the city that traffic is static in with housing is carbonised. Why single out one area, unless it's the low hanging fruit....

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121271561#Comment_121271561

Its in somewhat of a bowl so is probably why this area suffers more from pollution than other parts of City on still cold nights - but another factor is that EPA have a air quality monitoring station opposite Rockfield Park in Rahoon which can give them good measurements.

_Whimsical_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248567#Comment_121248567

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245888#Comment_121245888

@what_traffic but those points ignore the reality of the kind of care being provided - Xrays, a diagnostic imaging hub providing MRI and CAT scan ultrasound, also services like physiotherapy and occupational therapy do generally attract people who are unwell, injured or somewhat disabled by their ailment. They wouldn't tend to be cyclists or even using public transport. I say that as someone who has been unwell and has not been able to stand at a bus stop or walk from my home to one, so I'm assuming many others would face similar issues. Going to appointments in UCHG for me, and others I know with similar health issues, has meant getting a taxi or a lift from relations because I couldn't rely on finding parking there and certainly could park off campus and walk there. I have 4 relations in a similar situation right now & also friends. I'm sure you can think of someone in your own life in a similar situation. I personally think needs like that should be factored into any healthcare facility provision and hardships incurred in other facilities should be avoided in the next. I would be surprised to find a reasonable proportion of the people requiring these services arriving by foot, bike or bus.

You have to remember we are talking 127 parking spaces for 300 staff and a possible 500 patients of varying physical wellbeing. I don't know how that seems adequate except in a situation that ignores the reality of the demographic involved and also the reality of car usage in Galway as stands.

@berrecka I think perhaps you are thinking of the intention to transition elderly care to a home care model rather than use nursing homes. Where more can be provided at home by carers. Those are non-professional roles ensuring someone can safely stay at home, helping provide meals, ensuring meds are taken, minor health checks like blood pressure are performed. That's a totally different role than a primary healthcare centre provides. Realistically to move professional healthcare to an home model you would have to allow for several lost professional hours spent in transit to various homes and increased money on expenses for petrol etc. I don't forsee any possibility of our health budget allowing for that. Also why would you build an 8 storey healthcare facility if you were attending to pursue an entirely different model that would eat way more financial resources. I should say no HSE bus transport model has been suggested.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121193003#Comment_121193003

Today is the end day of the CLEANAIRTOGETHER project. Send back your tubes Galway

berrecka

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282894#Comment_121282894

I'm referring to most of the services provided by Primary Care - I have had public health nurses come to my house on many occasions - Id say of the 30+ interactions I have had with them, perhaps 2 have been in the PC Centre. My sibling currently has a physio, an OT and a SLT all come to their house regularly, again she has visited the centre less than 5 times in the last 4 years. Another family member has home health visitors, dont think he has ever been into a centre. All of these services have been through Primary Care, but nearly none have been provided in the centre itself.

As far as I can tell from my time working in the HSE, while not directly in Primary Care, the general movement is much more towards getting the healthcare to the patient as much as possible.

I know plenty of Physios and Community nurses who are in the office only to collect files in the morning and perhaps one afternoon a week writing up reports, the rest of the time, they are carrying out their work in the community. They would all currently be based in Primary Care Centres.

I agree the situation in the hospital is diabolical. Their answer is to move a lot of the services out to Merlin Park. Im not sure thats the answer, but it hopefully will ease the congestion and parking problem on the UHG campus.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285442#Comment_121285442

Those nurses, physios etc who visit the office to pick up files - are they travelling by bicycle? If they are, then how do they keep other patients files and equipment secure while with each patient?

If not, then where will they part in the morning during their office visit?

berrecka

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285876#Comment_121285876

I mean, they could certainly bring a days worth of files with them, you'd be amazed how much I lug around with a couple of paniers and a basket. As for equipment, I guess that would depend on the service being provided. But, Id imagine if they are doing housecalls all over the CHO, or even sections of it, they will use a car. I doubt everyones 5 minutes in the morning would be the exact same though, so I imagine they can park in one of the staff spaces provided