ICR Train Carriage with New Standing Area

TravelCounty

I was leaving Dublin Heuston and saw a new train at Platform 5.

Appeared to have a small section with a commuter-like layout at the end of each carriage (more Maynooth line style). This is probably old news, but are there many of these ordered? Or are they already in existence in areas I'm just not in.

If it's new, it'd be interesting to see what people think of it. I can see it annoying InterCity customers, but for commuters (especially on the Kildare Line where 22000s are heavily used) I'd say it's a welcome addition. Standing on a crowded 22000 is not a great experience!

TravelCounty

My bad, this is actually related to the 41 ICR carriages ordered by Iarnród Éireann.

https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/about-us/iarnrod-eireann-projects-and-investments/investment-new-trains

A multipurpose area is installed instead featuring 9 x flip up seats and a standing area with hand rails, bicycle storage.

A bit disappointing to learn that only one will be on a given train - the long string of ample standing space and proper handles on the train in Heuston looked like the perfect long-distance commuter train.

Still, it's a welcome and badly-needed development. They'll be very useful for InterCity trains that stop on the Kildare Line during peak hours (to do a commuter job disguised as an InterCity service 🤣 like in Kildare, Newbridge, Sallins & Naas, Hazelhatch & Celbridge). They replace a toilet (since there's already toilets on the other carriages) so InterCity customers will not be affected via less seats/forced standing long distance/etc.

Hopefully there will be more of these in the future. The only problem I might foresee is an awkward challenge for InterCity customers that prebooked seats trying to exit through a crowded standing section, but still it's a minor problem in the grand scheme of things

Geuze

41 cars for 150m seems awful expensive.

We need 41 more trains, not cars!!!

mikeybhoy

Does anyone have picture of the new style carriages?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121170588#Comment_121170588

Trains are expensive

Unique trains are even more expensive - we only share our track gauge with a country with no long or medium distance passenger trains (Brazil - they've metros) and one sub section of Australia that is primarily commuter trains again.

howiya

Why are we only getting 41 new cars?

Budget 2021, Budget 2022 and Budget 2023 each referred to the purchase of 41 new cars.

densification

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121176786#Comment_121176786

Interesting how many budgets they have featured in given that they were ordered in October 2019.

It's worth noting that there are another 185 carriages of Dart+ electric trains on order, with up to a total of 750 carriages (75 full length trains) being ordered in the next few years.

The 41 cars are a quick way to add capacity to existing commuter trains.

trellheim

They are not commuter trains they are ICRs

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121177538#Comment_121177538

Doesn't stop them being used for both, though. All PPT commuter, most Docklands commuter and a handful of Maynooth commuter services are done using ICR

TravelCounty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121177538#Comment_121177538

Like L1011 says, we use them as commuter trains on loads of different services, most notably the Portlaoise commuter and the M3 Parkway-Docklands commuter. We don't really have plans to change to a commuter style train for some of these services (albeit M3 Parkway/Maynooth - Dublin will be changed to the new DART fleet as DART+W is rolled out).

Unless there are plans to move the Maynooth trains to the Portlaoise commuter after the transition to DART, the ICRs will be used as commuter trains into the foreseeable future.

I'm not too familiar with speed restrictions and average speed on journeys, but I presume one of the reasons for the decision to use these ICRs on the Portlaoise commuter was due to the lower density of stations after Hazelhatch (in the Portlaoise direction)?

alentejo

The 41 new carriages were ordered as part of the original tender for the 22ks back in the day. Like most tenders/contracts, there was an option to extend the order. All other new orders (eg new DARTS) are subject to new and ongoing tenders.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121177949#Comment_121177949

Strictly speaking, the Portlaoise services are Intercity stopping services, feeding into the Dublin/Cork services at Portlaoise.

The ICRs can avail of the higher line speeds on the Dublin/Cork line and hence all services on that side are operated by them. Operationally too it makes sense, as the 29000s are maintained at Drogheda.

Medium term, when DART+ SouthWest comes into effect, it's likely that the Portlaoise services will switch to operating as semi-fast services, running non-stop between Heuston and Hazelhatch, and linking into the DART at Hazelhatch.

These 41 ICR intermediate cars will primarily facilitate the addition of extra trains on Intercity routes next year, when the set reformations are completed, with services that currently use two sets of three cars being able to use a single six-car set instead, resulting in some additional sets becoming available. ICRs will also likely replace the 29000s off the longer distance Longford and Dundalk commuter services, which should then free up ICRs off the likes of M3 Parkway-Docklands.

Once the DART+ fleet orders start entering service, they will in turn facilitate further set cascades of 29k sets to elsewhere on the network.

Any future requirement for additional Intercity trains will be from orders of new train types and not more ICRs - this should be the final set of deliveries of that class of train. We would have had these 41 intermediate cars far earlier had the NTA not prevaricated unnecessarily over ordering them.

TravelCounty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121179802#Comment_121179802

Thanks for the info. That all makes sense.

Probably speculation, but do we have any idea where the 29000s will be going if they're freed up? Since the Dublin network will basically be all DART I presume they would go to Cork or Galway?

loyatemu

you would hope the first place they'll be going is somewhere to be refurbished as currently they're wrecked.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180203#Comment_121180203

I think that’s looking a bit too far forward right now. Time will tell, as we need to see what happens with the DART+ implementation.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180238#Comment_121180238

There was a tender issued earlier this year to repair the floors on the 29k fleet.

L1011

There was also either a tender or PIN for new seats I think

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121170588#Comment_121170588

it's a 15 year or more old design at this stage so that is probably part of the cost as the design may have changed some bit since the last of the full train set orders in 2011, the first being in 2006 and arriving in 2007 if i remember correctly.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121177949#Comment_121177949

no, it was to get them to and from the train care depot which is at portlaoise.

it and droghida are where all long distance diesel trains are maintaned bar the cork and belfast loco hauled trains.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121181446#Comment_121181446

There is a change integration element to the new order - all the side panels and seat covers have been replaced on the original set, USB power added and lots of other non visible changes. This will have increased the per unit cost.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180238#Comment_121180238

i would say beyond clapped out personally, they look and feel as if they are beyond life expired.

but yes they should be salvagible if they can be refurbished properly.

Hilly Bill

Its also the bike carriage without racks so there won't be much room for standing if you get a few bikes in there. Its like a tiny luas carriage at the end.

TravelCounty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121181675#Comment_121181675

That's true also, forgot to mention that. To be honest I'd still take that over trying to hold onto a wall of a carriage 😂

It was an ok size to be fair - especially when all the seats were upturned - and the bulk of people standing will be cleared by the time of the 1st or 2nd stop (at least that is the case on the Kildare Line, not too familiar with other services), so it will probably do the job for now.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174725#Comment_121174725

In general, what sort of extra cost do we face per coach, due to the track gauge issue?

Cookie_Monster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121183182#Comment_121183182

very little, just more steel in the bogies to make them wider. The loading gauge (ie the width and height of rolling stock) is the same as the UK so UK stock can run here and vice versa by swapping bogies, and this has been done in the past.

The UK/Irish loading gauge is however more restrictive than the continent or US so still requires design constraints and off the shelf designs used across Europe for example cannot be used here. Double decker coaches for example simply cannot fit under the bridge heights or tunnel widths here.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180570#Comment_121180570

Isn't there a set currently having the floor replaced in Inchicore?

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121183537#Comment_121183537

The Irish loading gauge is more generous that that of the UK. Earlier coaches designed by Bulleid were over 10 feet wide, whihc would nevefr fit in the UK. However it wiil often pay to buy already available designs with UK specifications. As far as I am aware, the Mark IV coaches on the Cork main line (built by CAF in Spain) exceed UK loading gauge limits.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121183182#Comment_121183182

Unquantifiable. As above, it doesn't really cost any noticeable amount more in materials to make the different trains; but it does cost more in terms of design (not every 1435mm train actually has the space to just make the wheel sets wider), altering production techniques, creating issues with testing (manufacturers usually have 1435mm test tracks, they nevver have 1600mm ones) and also the ability to just buy someone elses trains.

For example - the UK HST sets that are being retired are being bought by Mexico, no mods required, cause its the same track gauge (and compatible in terms of loading gauge). The NTA also spent a decent amount of time dicking around looking at rebogeying early 00s UK units that were up for sale - one of two pointless wastes of time along with the 2700/8200 rebuild that they looked at that delayed ordering more proper stock!