Serving notice of objection to renewal of liquor license

TheChizler

Just wondering if someone is familiar with the courts procedure in this type of case.

My mother is planning to object to a neighbouring pub's license renewal at the end of the month, for reasons of them taking the p*ss essentially. Not looking for the license to be denied, but to have some facts on record and conditions put on it if that's possible. I'm helping her with figuring it out but she's ultimately the one doing the objecting.

I asked the clerk in the court office what was the procedure and they couldn't have been more helpful. They told me we had to serve the publican with notice as in form 80.1 via registered post and get a receipt, get the declaration of service signed by a commissioner for oaths, and lodge everything with the court office and at that time pay the fee of €35. Basically everything everything in the district court rules, pretty much the same as in the below guide.

So we did all that and today my mother went to lodge the notice and pay the fee and a different clerk refused to lodge it as the original notice hadn't been stamped by the office and stamp duty hadn't been paid. They said come back tomorrow when a more s boss senior clerk was there.

I was aware that when you're sueing someone for instance you need to get the notice you serve them with stamped, that's clear from the legislation I've read and the court rules, but I haven't found anything similar in the case of objecting to a license. It's contrary to everything I've read.

So what's the truth here? Do notice of objections need to be stamped the same as when you're properly serving someone in litigation? If so that's not clear at all from the court rules. Not looking for legal advice, it's too late to do anything about it if what the clerk is saying is right.

https://www.courts.ie/rules/objections-renewal-intoxicating-liquor-licences-forms-renewal-certificate-forms-renewal

https://www.drugsandalcohol.ie/28432/1/Community-Guide-to-Alcohol-Licensing%28Artwork%29.pdf

Peregrinus

It's in a different part of the rules. There's a €35 fee to lodge a notice of objection to the renewal of a licence. See item 28:

https://www.courts.ie/content/licensing-matters

The fee is paid in the form of stamp duty. Payment is denoted by stamping the document. So first you stamp your document and then you lodge it. When you come to lodge it, they know you've paid the fee because of the stamp.

TheChizler

Thanks for that.

That seems to say that we pay as we lodge, which was my understanding.

So we're at the stage where we're attempting to lodge the notice along with the statutory declaration of serving. The court rules explicitly state that this happens after serving the notice on the licencee:

When service has been effected the original notice, together with a statutory declaration as to service thereof, shall be lodged with the Clerk as soon as possible

We obviously can't lodge the copy we posted so it has to be a second copy. This is the one that needs to be stamped surely? And if it's meant to be a certified copy of the original stamped notice or something then that step is missing from the process. But the above fee is due "on lodging", and we can't lodge before serving so it has to be due now surely?

TheChizler

Actually when I started this process I was doing a search on all the licenses attached to the premesis and had to go to a different office in the court to pay the €35 and get a form stamped, bring the stamp to the licensing office and they did the search. Is it possible the confusion is just that they can't take payment in the licensing office, she needs to go downstairs, get the stamp, and come back? You think they'd say that though.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128743#Comment_121128743

I'd have thought a solicitor is the way to go here?

And did your mother engage with the business during the year to try find a resolution?

Ultimately you are hoping for some sort of agreement between parties and solicitors are the way to go.

Peregrinus

The fee is due on lodging, which means you can't lodge until it's paid. But there's nothing to stop you paying the fee in advance of lodging and getting the document stamped. In fact, that's clearly what the court clerk expected you to do.

As for the original and the copy, don't get too hung up on this. You can prepare the notice in more than one copy, serve one copy of the notice on the licensee, stamp the other copy and lodge it, and the copy you lodged will be treated as the original.

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128784#Comment_121128784

Thanks for the help. That all sounds sensible but from the interaction yesterday she came away with the impression that the copy sent to the licencee by registered post two weeks ago was the one that should have been stamped, and since that needed 21 days notice before callover that it was too late to fix and serve again before continuing the process. But that doesn't seem to be the correct process according to everything I've read and now the information here.

Peregrinus

Mmm. We're exceeding my technical competence in District Court procedure. But the rules do say that the fee is payable on lodgment and, while it may be the practice to pay in advance of lodgment so that the copy sent to the licensee shows stamping, I can't see how it can be obligatory.

I'd be tempted to stamp and lodge the copy anyway, and say that you'll deal with any objections to admissibility at the hearing. As you're a lay litigant I think the judge will cut you a bit of slack if things haven't been done in the right order. The bottom line is that the licensee knows about the objection and the fee will have been paid.

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128765#Comment_121128765

I'd agree if we were defending or actually taking a civil action but we're just objecting to a license renewal, the clerk and a legal buddy were telling me that lay-people commonly do it themselves. Maybe it would be handy for someone to argue our case in court but we're still at the procedural stage which should be relatively straightforward, maybe we're finding out it's not. It's not right if the rules are published in a straighforward manner but it turns out there are 'secret' rules you needed to follow in hindsight.

To answer the rest, this is the latest in a long process of engagement and broken agreements going on since Covid. I don't want to get into detail but they're on the wrong side of all the official findings so far. We're at the stage where we need a court order or something like that which the Gardaí can act on if they're in breach.

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128909#Comment_121128909

I was thinking that we should do just that, how would the clerk know if the copy we sent had a stamp or not, and if it came to it you could show the judge that the served copy and the lodged copy were identical.

I appreciate the info. Interesting about the importance of stamps in the legal system, I'll be curious to know how these procedures came to be when we're done.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121129584#Comment_121129584

When it gets to court the pubs solicitor will grill your mother.

Then your mother will need to grill the publican by herself, is she up for that?

Reading the last paragraph you really need to get a solicitor on board.

coylemj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121129722#Comment_121129722

I think that is sensible advice. The OP's experiences so far have shown us that this process is a technical maze and I can forsee a situation where the OP's mother goes into court and gets walloped by a blizzard of technical submissions put up by the publican's solicitor. And the judge will approve the renewal.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121129722#Comment_121129722

But that pushes the affordability and accessibility of the court system out of the reach of some. At the end of the day a valid objection to a pub license should be a relatively well documented and somewhat simple process. Abuse of the process should be weeded out at the court level and not dependent on the financial ability or the tenacity of a complainant in following a tedious process, would you not agree?

TheChizler

Just to update on this she went back in when the more senior clerk was there, with a printout of the court rules to demonstrate our point of view. Basically the position was "yes that's the official procedure, but it's not how we do things here" 🤷‍♂️

In the end they accepted her going to the fees office, getting the notice stamped, and then they lodged it. Interestingly they tried to charge €5, then €70 then the correct €35 after calling somebody, so maybe this process doesn't get exercised all that often...

Anyway this part of the process is done, we'll have to consider what happens next! Thanks for the sounding board.

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121129722#Comment_121129722

It's something we've talked about and I think it would be good to talk to a solicitor to at least explain what we can expect. I've talked to a legal friend who says the judge is usually very forgiving of lay-objectors and it helps to have a few supporters in the room, rightly or wrongly.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121133336#Comment_121133336

We have our facts and just want to present them. The goal isn't to have the renewal denied, the business is plenty of people's livelyhood after all, more to have the licensee sit up and take notice and hopefully have an order that they behave themselves in a certain way which makes it enforceable by the Gardaí. Conditions on the license etc. The last part might be fantasy, I don't know.

coylemj

We have our facts and just want to present them. The goal isn't to have the renewal denied, the business is plenty of people's livelyhood after all, more to have the licensee sit up and take notice and hopefully have an order that they behave themselves in a certain way which makes it enforceable by the Gardaí. Conditions on the license etc. The last part might be fantasy, I don't know.

If your objections are noted, the best that you can hope for is that when the next renewal comes around, you and your neighbours can make an appearance at the licensing sitting of the district court to state your case i.e. the licensee agreed to observe certain conditions and has not done so.

You make no mention of any involvement by the local Gardai - have you or your neighbours lodged any complaints to the local Gardai about how the publican conducts his business? Because if you have not, you can be sure that this will be highlighted by the licensee's solicitor. Who will stand up and remind the judge that there have no objections to the renewal from the local Garda Superintendent. Which is the legal way to imply that the licensee has maintained an orderly house and you are just a cranky lot of old codgers who can't stand to see people enjoying themselves.

My point being that while the judge may be sympathetic to your case, if the local cops are not on your side and have nothing bad to say about how the pub is run, you'll have an uphill battle to achieve anything during your day in court. For all the judge knows, you could be a bunch of troublemakers who have all been barred from the pub and are now out for revenge.

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121138029#Comment_121138029

If your objections are noted, the best that you can hope for is that when the next renewal comes around, you and your neighbours can make an appearance at the licensing sitting of the district court to state your case i.e. the licensee agreed to observe certain conditions and has not done so.

This is basically the backup plan, we're aware this is going to be a long process. We want to get across the message that there is a possible threat to the license.

Yes the Gardaí are involved, just nothing to do with the court objection procedures which is why I haven't mentioned them before now. We have a letter from the local superintendent saying how the licensee gave them an undertaking to behave, which has since been demonstrablybroken several times. There's not much the Gardaí can/are willing do apart from dealing with each individual incident and getting involved in the licence renewal process. There's plenty of incidents on record. Unfortunately that superintendent has since retired and we don't have a relationship with the new one, if there was more time between the renewal and now we'd try to get them involved.

coylemj

There's not much the Gardaí can/are willing do apart from dealing with each individual incident and getting involved in the licence renewal process.

I wouldn't accept that transactional approach, it's a complete dereliction of their duty to monitor how each licensed premises is run.

I would write to the current superintendent, set out your stall, remind him or her of the history of your complaints, with a timeline if you have a record of incidents. Make it clear that you and your friends will be in court, you have lodged multiple complaints with his/her predecessor and you expect him or her to support you. Or, at the very least, acknowledge that there is a problem.

It's really important that the supt. is on your side on the day of the licensing court. If he or she just shrugs when and if the judge asks if there is a history of disorder at the premises, you'll have been wasting your time.

Get the supt. on your side or just don't bother showing up. BTW, in some larger Garda city districts, licensing of bookies and pubs is looked after by an Inspector, a Garda officer who is one rank below Supt. Make sure that you're dealing with the right person.