Hybrid technical expertise would be much appreciated

dickdasr1234

My work colleague had the misfortune to end up with diesel in the tank of her petrol hybrid (Japanese import, Nissan Micra equivalent).

She was covered for this eventuality by her insurance policy and the AA duly rectified the issue.

Then the saga begins.

Upon return of the car, she found it difficult to start and sluggish.

A red light appeared on the dash and the car went into limp mode.

The AA brought it back to the garage where she purchased it with a still-in-operation one year warranty.

This happened in JUNE of this year.

The car has been with the garage since and no replacement provided.

She has been served up a series of excuses ranging from the plausible to the absolutely ridiculous.

The upshot is that the garage is now claiming that her battery is completely banjaxed and needs to be replaced. They also say that, because the damage was self-inflicted, the warranty does not cover the required repair. Her insurance company concurs (no surprise there).

Is there any body out there with the technical knowledge that could support or neutralise the garage's claim that diesel in a hybrid petrol engine can damage the battery?

Any advice would much appreciated on behalf of my distraught colleague. Thank you.

mickdw

At the most basic level, if the car was OK prior to mis fueling and not OK after, it's not going to be covered by warranty.

The battery could be a red herring but it could be something like the petrol engine is not cutting in as it should due to having a starting /poor running issue and therefore shows battery getting run down. I'm just saying it definitely seems to be related to the misfueling unless it's a coincidence that issue started at same time.

the_amazing_raisin

Yeah that's quite a saga, really feeling sorry for your colleague

First off, I'm afraid I don't have the expertise, however I would recommend your colleague gets an independent mechanic (ideally one with experience of Japanese imports) looks at the car and gives an assessment

I would also get an independent assessor for the insurance company to determine the root cause of the battery issues (perhaps the mechanic can also do this?)

Taking the common sense approach, I don't see how putting diesel in the tank would affect the traction battery. Unless she somehow poured diesel over the battery, and even still it probably would only make a mess to clean up

I'm going to offer an alternative and slightly more plausible series of events. The AA didn't manage to get all the diesel out and that has done some damage to the engine

The garage were waiting on parts to become available because the car is an import and they don't keep those parts in stock (and they can be difficult to source)

The garage left the traction battery drained the whole time and it's now been degraded from months of misuse and is no longer holding sufficient charge

Garage realising they've f**ked up are now fobbing the problem off on the customer. Insurance company just takes the garage assessment at face value because they don't want to pay out

dickdasr1234

It has taken the garage three months to come up with this explanation.

I can understand a battery being run down by the shenanigans. lying idle (under the garages care etc.)

But this is a 4yo car. She has been told the battery is beyond repair.

I did not want to get into the litany of bullshit that she has been served, but this, to me, is just the latest in a long line.

My question is, specifically, whether the misfueling, in and of itself, could have damaged the battery. Thank you.

mickdw

Is the petrol engine running properly now?

If not, the misfueling has done damage and all other symptoms are sure to be related.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121082511#Comment_121082511

I think it's a longshot that the misfueling would have destroyed the battery. If it did then the battery wasn't long for the world anyway

Let's consider this, it sounds like the petrol engine wasn't working correctly and not producing sufficient power

The way hybrids work is to use the electric motor to try and keep the petrol motor in the ideal power range

If the petrol motor in underpowered then it's quite plausible the electric motor was working overtime and this draining the battery more often than expected

However, the motor isn't directly connected to the battery, there's a controller which regulates the voltage and current from the battery and (among other things) should prevent the battery from becoming damaged due to being overstressed

And it sounds like your colleague didn't exactly drive the car around much between the misfueling and getting the warning light, so it unlikely he battery would be been under stress for very long

It's quite possible that the bit of driving your colleague did was enough to drain the traction battery and it hasn't been charged since, which could be enough to cause some damage

However given the garage are supposed to be somewhat familiar with the inner workings of a car, and I imagine it one of the errors that popped up on the diagnostics was "low traction battery voltage" then they should have charged it manually to keep it in working condition

In any case, independent mechanic and assessor should be able to tell you this

dickdasr1234

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121082483#Comment_121082483

Thanks, that has pretty much been my read on things.

Again, I don't want to put the entire detail up but she's dealing with sheisters as far I am concerned. Would you believe that, at one point, they told her the battery went flat because there was no petrol in it to run the engine (despite the AA having filled it)?

I have little mechanically knowledge and zero on the vagaries of hybrid technology but find it hard to believe that diesel in a petrol engine can damage a battery.

For me, it is most likely that subsequent mismanagement has caused the problem. To add to her misery two solicitors that she contacted declined to handle this for her!

dickdasr1234

I have asked her for specific details as to:

1. how far the car was driven on diesel

2. If the engine was running after the AA man did his job.

3. How far the car was driven after the AA man did his job.

4 If the engine was running when delivered to the garage.

It does seem as though she may damaged her engine to some degree but the sheer ignorance, mechanical and otherwise, displayed by the garage is astonishing.

The garage did leave it idle for weeks before sending it to a Nissan garage as they had no hybrid-competent mechanic.

She can get no information from the Nissan garage and has been told she must liaise with Harmonstown.

I think she could accept that the diesel may have damaged her engine but the mismagement of the situation is causing huge distress, never mind the inconvenience of being without her car for three months.

They have offered a no-guarantees attempt to fix the battery issue for €3k!

Imagine going that route and then finding out that your engine is baked!

Ash.J.Williams

I do believe hybrid batteries can be damaged beyond repair if not getting fuel

dickdasr1234

Can anybody recommended a decent, hybrid competent, independent mechanic?

Preferable northside, ideally Coolock.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121083234#Comment_121083234

PM sent

FWIW, I don't see how one incident of overstressing the battery could cause permanent damage

It is possible to damage a healthy battery in one go, a massive short circuit being an example. However you'd probably expect some burnt out electronics and a fire if that occurred

I'm also going to assume that Nissan have some level of electrical protection to prevent that happening

So it seems more likely that the battery was degraded from the beginning and was put under significant load when the petrol engine lost power which was enough to push it over the edge

Hybrid batteries can get some serious abuse since they're pretty small relative to the loads they're put under and they get cycled a lot.

However 4 years seems like a very short amount of time, particularly considering the number of older Priuses you see driving around and clocking up enormous mileage

Does any of this help your friend? Maybe not, it could still be the misfuel that pushed the battery over the edge, so still their fault potentially

However it's worth checking if there's a manufacturer warranty on the traction battery, just doing some checking and they seem to have an 8 year or 160,000km warranty from manufacturer defects

If they can successfully argue that the battery was bad from the start or had degraded faster than expected, then they might be able to get Nissan to cover the replacement

dickdasr1234

Thanks, your input is much appreciated.

It now seems the garage is now saying the battery is 'asleep' and cannot charge without an additional software upload.

Castle Motors looks a likely candidate and will advise my friend to make an enquiry with them.

As more details eked out, it seems the car was driven to a standstill after the diesel fill.

That doesn't augur well for the engine and obliterates any notion of a warranty claim.

She is going to have to take a big hit, I fear.

Thanks again.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121083532#Comment_121083532

Ah yeah, that doesn't sound hopeful, think any chance of a warranty claim just flew out the window 😔

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121082483#Comment_121082483

The battery will not have suffered any long term damage from being left in the dealers for 3 months

Do you know how many Japanese imports come into Ireland every year, all of which are left sitting for months, with no damage to the battery.

Even brand new hybrid cars being shipped from Japan, they are left sitting for months.

I have personally had Nissan hybrids sit idle for 12 months with no long term damage to the hybrid system.

dickdasr1234

The battery was run down (by repeated attempts to start the car) to the point where it would not turn the engine over.

It was in this condition when then left uncharged by the garage for months.

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121085814#Comment_121085814

Thats the 12v battery. Not a big deal. I thought the issue was with the hybrid battery?

kanuseeme

Did any one check the 12v?

dickdasr1234

I have no direct knowledge of the facts only the sequence of events as relayed to me.

Are you saying that the traction battery in an imported Japanese Nissan Micra (e-power) cannot be tapped out by repeated attempts to start the engine?

The car was driven only a matter of yards with diesel in the tank before conking out.

It is safe, therefore, to assume that the traction battery was not exhausted from powering the engine.

The car was driving perfectly for nine months before the diesel incident.

Something arising from that incident has caused the traction battery to run down and fail to recharge (according to the garage).

I ignorantly assumed that turning over the starting motor excessively could have brought about such a scenario. It seems not?

The plot thickens!

User1998

Honestly, I don’t know if trying to start your engine over and over can break the hybrid battery

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121086206#Comment_121086206

Again, I'm not an expert on hybrids, but here's what I know from the world of EVs and as far as I know most of it should translate across

Okay, so hybrids have 2 batteries, a regular 12v battery and a more powerful traction battery

The traction battery is connected to the electric motor through a contactor, which is basically just an electrically driven switch

The contactor is powered from the 12v battery, which also starts the engine

In normal operation the engine will recharge the 12v battery, however if it's not producing enough power the battery won't be charged

In EVs the traction battery will recharge the 12v battery, I've honestly no idea if a hybrid can do the same. They're dependant on the petrol engine running so my guess is no

Starting the engine repeatedly will drain the battery pretty quickly, they've only got enough charge to handle a few starts. That's probably why the engine wouldn't even turn over

So that's why I think @kanuseeme has a good idea asking if anyone has checked the 12v battery to see if it's working properly. If it isn't then the contactor to the traction battery won't stay closed and they couldn't get the car running

There are also some cars that have some pretty serious quirks if the 12v battery is jump started or anything. Apparently Opels from 2012 would essentially go into some kind of lockdown if you tried to replace a dead 12v battery and only the garage could fix it

Not saying this is the issue, but it could merit further investigation

kanuseeme

A12 v on the way out can cause problems in EVs/hybrids, my dad's c350 had a warning for the traction battery and it was a 10 k replacement, turned out it was the 12v .

No one would suspect a problem with a 4 year old 12v battery

But it could have been damaged twice , firstly coming from Japan and then again after diesel gate.

I suspect it's charged from the traction battery, why have a starter and alternator when you have a motor/ generator

dickdasr1234

Thanks to all contributors.

I have kinda baled out at this stage - suggested Castle Motors as a prefered option given the ignorance of all sorts that abounds in the garage she is dealing with.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121089386#Comment_121089386

I don't blame you, there's only so much you can do

If you ever find out what the root cause was, let us know. I'd be interested in it from a technical viewpoint

Buddy Bubs

You, or your friend more so, have a long road ahead of you with this. Misfuelling a hybrid car, with all its components interlinked, resulting in a battery failure would be a very easy out for the supplying dealer and I wouldn't blame them to be honest. They have a very strong case, don't put diesel in a petrol car, hybrid system or not.

I think the onus here is on the owner to prove without any doubt, that it could not have affected not only the battery but the entire system.

Until that can be proved, I don't think the dealer has much of a case to answer. The car and it's complex drivetrain system was mistreated.

Getting this proof, if it even exists, could be more costly than car is worth and even then, could be disputed, misunderstood and ultimately worthless.

dickdasr1234

Yes, it would a hopeless pursuit trying to prove that the garage's undoubted negligence had a role to play, and to what exent.

Thankfully, it would seem that the engine should survive given the short distance travelled.

If the battery issue can be rectified for a couple of grand, I think she'd be happy enough.

sh81722

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121086206#Comment_121086206

Don't most hybrids use the motor/generator to start the engine using the high voltage battery? But they also have a normal starter motor as a backup. But it's a possibility that both batteries are drained with repeated unsuccessful start attempts.

corks finest

Actually 12 v starter batteries don't always last for years,I've had 5 import hybrids,one had the original 12 v starter battery in 19 yrs later,yet my current hybrids one didn't last 5 yrs,all different

My 2010 Honda insight hybrid battery still rocking,no issue's

I regularly see it motoring about,so the hybrid battery itself is under reliable