We don't qualify for the heat pump grant, but the best electric heating is still heat pump?

BuckoA51

I've been doing research on heat pumps, for some background our house was built in 2004, is timber frame and currently uses oil heating. I read a few articles, most seemed to say that as long as you get a unit suitable for your house, they can work pretty much anywhere, even really old 19th century houses. Obviously doing a little remedial work to make the house as energy efficient as possible helps a lot too.

Honestly with the grant making it more affordable we were pretty sold on the idea, and even started planning what we'd do with the shed space currently taken up with the oil tank.

Anyway, it seems our journey towards heat pump ownership has ended when we got our energy efficiency/heat loss report through earlier this week. it stated the following:-

"In order to qualify for the SEAI Heat pump grant the calculated/identified Heat Loss Indicator (HLI - this is the collective heat loss from the dwelling through the building fabric (floors, walls, ceilings, doors & windows) and through unintended/uncontrolled ventilation losses (i.e. draughts)) must be ≤ 2.0 W/K m² or in circumstances as below up to a maximum of ≤ 2.3 W/K m². Your current HLI is 2.39 W/K m² and as such is above the threshold where a Grant would be considered."

Unfortunately, there isn't anything we can do to improve this short of adding insulation to the outer walls which would be hugely expensive and very difficult without major internal disruption.

My next question was, if a heat pump is considered unsuitable, what did they recommend from the other electric heating such as IR panels (considering oil/gas boilers are supposed to be banned in the future). The answer surprised me, a properly fitted heat pump is still the best low carbon option. In our case with our heat loss calculations it's unlikely to save us any money in running costs Vs oil (and with Ireland's sky high electricity prices) but it's still the best option as far as the environment goes.

Anyway, the TL:DR of it all is, I have two questions for this forum:-

Has anyone on here installed a heat pump in a building with a similar heat loss indicator to ours, did it go okay?

The advisor also said we could lodge an appeal with SEAI given our situation but I have no idea what chance we have of success, has anyone done this and how did it go?

GreeBo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXamAjE0juw&ab_channel=UrbanPlumbers

This guy has lots to say about installing them in all sorts of houses. I find his videos excellent.

1874

I think the HLI will be based on assumptions, so, out of curiosity what did the surveyor for the HLI do to come to the result they arrived at? and what building type is your home? I think it may be easier than people think to improve their total heat loss values themselves. I get that EWI would be expensive to install, overall I think it is one improvement that could reap the most benefit in conjunction with (MVHR) Mechanical Ventialtion and Heat Recovery.

Im going to look up getting a HLI but I suspect they dont carry out a blower door test. Without that I think they must be estimating (assuming) the value for ventilation losses. Even the Fabric losses will have to be estimated, unless they have some records to go on, but that might be easier to get closer to what it is. My understanding is the HLI is a combination of both. How did they calculate your HLI? what did you see them do? measure up room sizes. Ive a feeling the HLI may just as weakly estimated as the BER was, which is based on a lot of assumptions.

I have considered getting cavity wall insulation, which I believe the options are polystyrene beads blown in or polyurethane injected in, in a liquid form to help with a HLI. I am surprised that a wooden frame home built in 2004 isnt up to a standard than most block built houses of a more traditional construction that would prevent getting an acceptable HLI based on the insulation, so Id be wondering what values the assessor used for ventilation and fabric losses and why?

I have come to the conclusion from looking up Heat Pumps online, that the idea that a house needs to be hermetically sealed to near Passiv Haus or Enerphit standards to have any benefit is wrong. I think it would obviously be better the more airtight and insulated a building is, but the chap above and other UK installers have mentioned that older homes can be fitted with Heat Pumps.

Now if it was an A2A HP system I think it would be essential to be airtight or to a very high standard, but for an A2W System, a house will still only be losing as much heat as it was using oil, if you can do that more efficiently using a well designed HP system, I think it could be possible to get better efficiencies and a more comfortable and cost effective heating system. The important considerations for a well designed HP are flow rates (correct pipe and emitter sizes) and low flow temperature (see John Cantor on youtube and heatpumps.co.uk). If a homes HP can get good COP values, then I think that is the most important aspect.

As you have the HLI, Id be asking the assessor how they came to that result? ie was it estimated? and Id be looking for the calculation, Id then be looking at my m^2 and seeing what 2.39 W/K?m^2 would work out at in cost, which I believe using the number of Degree days will tell you how often you will need to have heating on. Id factor in a min/max cost per unit. If your electric bill

If they just estimated your ventilation & fabric losses, then its possible your actual result may be better. If you approach the assessor with the view to how you can improve the result and see what they say, If armed with the figures and you ask if reducing your ventilation losses from their calculation could improve your HLI, then Id consider getting a blower door test (off someone else) put that result into their calculation and see what the HLI is then.

I definitely want to get a HeatPump, but getting it done officially via the grant route looks like it pushes up the price, did you get any quotes? Unless armed with the correct information, I dont see how the SEAI can expect to assist a move towards Heat Pumps.

BuckoA51

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121053569#Comment_121053569

Sorry about that, can you move the thread?

"I think the HLI will be based on assumptions, so, out of curiosity what did the surveyor for the HLI do to come to the result they arrived at? and what building type is your home?"

They just came round, measured lots of things, took details of our windows (all recently upgraded), solar install, measured the thickness of loft insulation etc.

Our house is a detached bungalow. We did ask how the results could be improved they said the only option was more insulation for the walls.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121053906#Comment_121053906

Moved from Climate Change, Sustainability & Environmental Issues 🙂

graememk

How much oil are you currently using a year?

Is your boiler a condensing one?

With that you can do a rough estimate of what heat energy is required in your house.

I agree with 1874, Heatpumps are just a heat source, as long as the emitters (radiators) are good enough, you can heat a drafty barn with one with a high efficiency. (still would use a lot of energy, but so would any other heating source)

Have you got any estimates on how much it would cost without the grant?

BuckoA51

Without the grant? Yikes, we've been told anywhere between 10k and 20k. We don't have quotes yet because we were told they'd need the heat loss calculations to do it properly but we'd definitely need the grant I think.

Mr Q

Grants in Ireland normally just drive the prices up and the people who benefit are the sellers/installers and not the home owner.

You only have to look at the cost of a solar PV install vs the material cost to see this.

Installing a heat pump is not difficult. After getting a quote see if you can price the equipment yourself and see how much they are over charging you for labour.

Private Joker

Have you gotten a technical assessment done on your house? with a 2004 house your wall insulation shouldn't bring down your HLI to exclude you getting a heat pump, i'd say where you're falling down is your windows and doors, if you do not have a cert a default value is taken which is high( 2.0 w/mk)

you might be able to get a cert from the original supplier, if it is munster joinery look between the window panes at the silver strip, there might be a serial number, ring up munster joinery with that number and they will send you out the correct cert.

in the absence of the correct certification the default for the age of the house is always given, BER assessors get audited on this and will not assume values.

check the technical report on your BER cert and see what the values are. If you need help interpreting it pm me and you can email me it.

1874

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055953#Comment_121055953

This is what Im thinking of doing, get an electrician to fit bring the appropriate power supply out to the HP location with an isolator. I'm going to see if I can do the calculations first on what I need and I may get cavity wall insulation or calculate what the difference is so HP isnt oversized and then fit a monobloc unit myself. Ill see what information is available in Specs and what is contained in the monobloc units at the ideal homes show, and see what installers say too. I wont be doing it before this winter. Looks like a straightforward fit for monobloc units so Ill be ruling out split systems if they involve piping refrigerant lines into an inside unit which I think Daikan may do for some (maybe all) of their units. Not sure if frost valves are available here, but have seen them online for UK installs rather than putting gycol into the system which reduces the heat capacity of the mixture, which alongside ruling out any brand that doesnt have weather compensation.

BuckoA51

Sorry to bump the old thread but I thought I'd report this. We got a call from the assessors out of the blue in November, they said that SEAI were looking to trial some heat pump installs in less well insulated houses, monitoring carefully etc how much they cost to run. They asked us if we'd be up for that and I said yes (since I think our house isn't as drafty as they made out anyway)....

Anyway I've heard nothing since, so idk.

kaizer13

There is so much talked about this subject and it seems to me that much of what I hear is based upon the regurgitation of myths and of long held and believed fears.

When my wife and I designed our new house we kept an open mind on how we would provide its heating energy. We knew all along that wet underfloor heating had to be included. Decisions on how to produce the hot water for the u/f could wait. Eventually we settled on air to water heat pump as that form of heating fitted in well with our own previously, long established method of home heating.

It is vital at this point to understand what home heating should be. If you can get that, then other vital elements of consideration may drop into place. As a family of two adults and three children with a ten year age spread, each member of the household had their own personal comfort temperature largely based upon what they might be doing, where in the house they might be doing it and at what time. I would arrive home from work in the early evening and head straight for the wall thermostat to turn the heating temperature down because everywhere was so "hot". Later, one of the kids would come down from their bedroom and say, "dad, my radiator has gone cold" and the wall thermostat would have to be turned up again.

At the time I was working as a heating engineer installing domestic central heating systems and also occasionally getting involved in some much larger commercial installations. In our own house, clearly this turning up and down of the wall thermostat seemed illogical. I solved the problem by relocating the thermostat in a closed, rainproof box onto a constantly in-shade, outside wall of the house. The heating system time switch was removed and the now outdoor (old electro mechanical) thermostat was fixed at a setting of 10 degrees C. All the house radiator manual control valves were replaced by thermostatic control valves and the radiator flow rates were balanced. Each room was assigned a target temperature and after a period of calibration, an ideal thermostatic radiator valve setting for each radiator was established. We comfortably and affordably lived with this system for fifteen years and never needed to alter any settings. The outside thermostat would determine when the heating should come on, it was never influenced by the calendar or by the clock.

The whole point of this story is that the building that we may all call our home and all of its contents, should be protected by the heating system. The chosen method should provide a starting environment from which all occupants can easily achieve their own comfort levels. Our philosophy, confirmed by many years of practical experience is that a home should and can very affordably be kept comfortable by keeping the heating on permanent low-level tick over. Everything benefits, bedding and clothing are always welcoming, bedrooms are not overheated yet bathrooms and sitting rooms are cosy. In our new home, our air to water heat pump runs on tick over only occasionally firing up to top up the temperature, as may be required in any one of our twelve heating zones. Us two pensioners can afford to run this just from our state pensions.

Homeowners have to learn to approach home heating from a totally different view point. The traditional belief that you should switch off heating when it is not being used is primitive and yet, hey, now technology allows you to be able to turn your heating on and off, from the other side of the World! Why?

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121556007#Comment_121556007

DIY weather compensation, nice.

But I dare say the TRVs were the most effective bit of the whole system, limiting the temperature of each room.

Now if you wanted to do that system you'd just drop something like a tado in, and that that can generate a call for heat for individual rooms etc.

And now with heatpumps it's back to being everywhere as open as possible to maximise efficiency

poker--addict

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055068#Comment_121055068

Ultimately they are starting to realise many houses with under 2.0 heat loss are costing a fortune to run - efficiency is more about installation, system design, and installer knowledge than whether your house is air tight or 120 years old.

BuckoA51

Ireland's electricity prices also mean that your heat pump has to work very well to save money, can't just be a bit more efficient than gas/oil I suppose.

Still heard nothing further on this.

sbabu_irl

Sorry for bumping an old thread. Wondering if you heard any further on it?