Would this house design in line with building regulation?

spupazza

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Hi, I'm trying to create a sketch of my house and put down my ideas, and before refining it further I'm wondering if the design would be in line with the current building regulations.

I'm wondering in particular about the stairs.

I'm trying to make the house as small as possible and to that purpose, I'd like to have the hall and the landing area on the first floor as small as possible.

I came up with this sketch you can see in the attachments.

It's a two-storey.

The hall is 1.2m (1.1m at the entrance due to the stairs winders) wide and 2.9m long.

The landing area on the first floor is 0.9m wide x 2.1 m long.

The stairs 90cm wide (including the rail) 2.8m long and 2.7m in height.

I plan to put internal doors 70 cm wide, while the main door would be 80 cm wide.

Would this design be in compliance with the current building regulations?

10-10-20

We're talking about Irish regs, right?

I see a bidet or else one of those fancy new double toilet bathrooms, so hence my question.

spupazza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120910084#Comment_120910084

Yes Irish regs

sydthebeat

Nope, mainly due to access regulations.

See here

https://assets.gov.ie/241161/31b7614c-7df1-439c-abcb-0f16fb3e93a7.pdf

spupazza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120910109#Comment_120910109

Thanks for the link to the pdf.

I've been reading it since yesterday, focusing on the pages related to the access .

My understanding, reading the document is that as long as I provide a clear space 1200mm wide and deep (page 154 of the document) I should be fine.Corridor upstairs is 900mm wide, so that should suffice according to the document. Correct?

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120911798#Comment_120911798

No, whole bunch of issues. You're not achieving your minimum door widths, and as the ground floor is larger than 45m2 you need to provide a wheelchair accessible bathroom with minimum 750x1200mm wheelchair-transfer space at the toilet.

Without measurements on the drawing it's hard to fully analyse, but you do need it to be fully analysed and designed in accordance with the regs.

FJMC

Think you will have to proceed with a degree more caution on this.

There is a myriad of overlapping / interrelated guidance in the Building Regulations - and particularly the Technical Guidance Documents which you generally use to ensure / demonstrate compliance with the Building Regs.

For example, winders on stairs in new builds are pretty much a no-no.

Before you get to building regs you will also need planning, etc. and a few design steps to take before you start on the Building Regs - although you (or your designer) will have to have the Building Regs in mind from the outset to a large degree.

F

Gumbo

Nope. You can’t buy off the shelf plans.

rooms too small to meet planning guidelines.

Accessible WC not in place.

No storage provisions to meet planning requirements.

Mellor

Guys, probably all need to go back a step of two. It’s just a sketch, it’s not a to scale construction drawing. He asking if the general layout of the stairs an landing is ok. ie the in-line stair and landing.

And the answers is yes it is. In general.

There’s a lot of work needed to take it from sketch to construction. Access, door clearances, WC clearance, stair dimensions. Room size/layouts. Planning requirements.

Not to mention, construction methodology, heating system, power, data, AV.

A lot of refinement needed that well we’ll see every single dimension changed. But can you do a compact stair and landing. Sure, probably.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120921459#Comment_120921459

Winders are permitted at the bottom of a stair subject to size.

FJMC

We've had trouble previously with winders - pulled on it by a Building Control Officer.

1.1.6 The varying tread width of a tapered step can cause people to misjudge distances and can lead to falls. For this reason, the use of tapered steps should be avoided. If it is necessary to use them, they should preferably be situated at the bottom of the stairs.

His interpretation was that winders should not be used in a new dwelling - and he wouldn't accept them in that instance.

F

sydthebeat

those exact words of 1.1.6 of TGD K are taken directly from BS 5395 which deals with stairs :

BS5395 is the applicable standard for new stairs, so its kind of 'anal' for a BCO not to accept them in a new dwelling, if the only reason is because the dwelling is a new build. I can think of many reasons why a grouping of winders at the bottom on a stair in a small dwelling such as a social dwelling is very warranted. i can also see however how they could be considered completely unnecessary in a large one off dwelling.

of course, like a lot of the regulations, it simply comes down to opinion, and in my opinion if a BCO doesnt accept them on the sole basis of "its a new build" than that is too restrictive and blinkered.

FJMC

I wouldn't disagree with you - but when TGD notes they should be avoided and a BCO is digging his heels in, it is not a good position to be in.

When it happened, the stair guy - who swears he had done hundreds of stairs with winders - went into radio silence!

Personally, my solution in the future would be to avoid using them in new build and only use them in existing after discussion with a BCO.

F

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120926004#Comment_120926004

I agree.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930984#Comment_120930984

:D

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930700#Comment_120930700

ah yeah i fully understand the sticky situation.

just giving worst case scenario, but it would be a right PITA though to have designed a scheme of social houses through planning with low level winders, only for a BCO not to accept them and a complete redesign and new planning application to be needed for larger houses

Sleepy

I'm no expert but one possible issue is that the downstairs bathroom opens into the kitchen which I'm fairly certain is forbidden under planning regs... unless there's an exemption for open plan rooms?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120931094#Comment_120931094

They removed the requirement for a lobby between a toilet and a kitchen in a dwelling. I recall it being a reg years ago.

All you need now is a door (thankfully)

Personally though I would never ever design a toilet off a kitchen without a lobby of some description.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120931094#Comment_120931094

No rule against that.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120925442#Comment_120925442

I was fully aware of the contents of TGD K when I made my post. Which is why I specifically mentioned the bottom of the stairs.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930700#Comment_120930700

I don't doubt you had these issues. But if the BCO was imply that winder are not allow ever in new builds, he was mistaken.

The TGD clearly states they should be avoided, but are permitted if necessary. Necessary is subjective, but a small house would qualify as necessary imo. I mean, if that wasn't good enough they should just be banned outright.

FJMC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949103#Comment_120949103

Yes - assumed you would be - I wasn't trying to be pedantic or anything on it.

I was just copying the wording from TGD K to contrast it with what the BCO was saying - and to provide as much info as possible on it - for benefit of others as well - and for myself as much as anything else. I could have done with an appeal case to argue the point with the BCO!

I don't disagree with you on the use of 'necessary' - I think the BCO's issue was he did not consider it 'necessary' - and we could have argued forever without him relenting - at that point, unfortunately, he has a stronger hand in the game.

The same could be applied to a lot of TGD - ultimately they are only guidance and there are other ways to demonstrate compliance - but in many ways you just make things increasingly difficult for yourself - and your clients - if you take that to the end.

F

spupazza

Assuming the height to the ceiling is 2.5m and the above floor thickness is 30cm, and willing to go for the maximum pitch allowed for stairs in a private home (42 degrees and stairs not wider than 1m) what would be the minimum length for the stairs considering the winder at the bottom of the stairs?

And what would be the minimum distance required between the first step of the stair at the bottom (ground floor) and the wall on the opposite side?

I included a picture to better explain my 2 questions

Screenshot from 2023-09-01 11-47-10.png

sydthebeat

you need at least 400mm between the door swing of the front door and the bottom step.

see TGD K 2014

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055583#Comment_121055583

In addition to the above, the minimum width is from step to the wall is 900mm. But that is at the clear width. So skirting to newel. Distance from riser to wall, I'd say a practical min is 950mm.

spupazza

Anybody can tell if the shape of those stairs can be compliant with building regulations? (assuming thread and rising are compliant)

http://www.stairplan.com/standard-double-winder-turn-staircase-fix-screw-designs-left.html

muffler

Wont comply. Winders at mid point arent permissible. 12 risers is also very questionable but then it depends on height.

spupazza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121225877#Comment_121225877

This Irish company claims that is possible to build a winder staircase that turns at the center while being compliant with regulation:

Building a winder staircase to the Building Regulations means that the center of the steps through the turn must keep the going length the same as the steps before and after. This keeps the steps uniform and makes them easier to use.

https://clonmorestairs.ie/staircases/single-double-winder/

Can this be right? (pls see the link with images)

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226740#Comment_121226740

Two things

You're understanding the point incorrectly. It's not how the winders are formed but where the winders are located in the stairs.

The regs say they should be towards the bottom of the stairs, if they are necessary.

And two, builders of stairs are not the ones that have to sign them off in compliance with regs, so their opinion really doesn't matter

Mellor

Just to really hammer home the point. Not compliant.

You said earlier in the thread you were just looking for ideas. Now you’re looking at detailed stair construction. Posting about pigeon steps next. Probably time for professional advice

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226740#Comment_121226740

To use an old local phrase .... if you believe everything a sales rep tells you you'll eat all you see.

spupazza

Thanks lads. Tbh I thought they were not compliant by reading the build regs, but then saw this Irish co. building stairs like that and thought that since they're 'in the business' if they build them they must be compliant.