Cork's legacy N routes

marno21

Cork still has four N routes through the city centre, the N22 along the Carrigrohane Road/Western Road/Washington Street/Patrick Street, the N8 along the Lower Glanmire Road, the N27 South City Link and the N20 North City Link and Blackpool bypass.

The former 3 could easily be pared back, but the N20 currently has nowhere alternative to feed traffic due to the lack of a Northern Ring Road.

Cork is now the only city with national routes running through its city centre (with the exception of Dublin's M50 Port Access route and legacy N11/N31) and depending on perspective, unbypassed Galway city with the N6 running within 1km of Eyre Square.

What should be done with Cork's N routes?

DylanQuestion

To me, the city centre elements of the N20 and N27 feel like national roads. They’re dual carriageways with little to no pedestrian or cyclist facilities (I know the N20 has footpaths but they’re not exactly attractive). Although the N20 does have some houses opening right onto it by Dino’s, it otherwise feels like a bypass. The N27 feels entirely like an N road. They also connect the southside via the N40 and northside via the North Ring to the city centre. Those two roads going all the way into the city centre island make sense to me for those reasons. They could possibly end the N27 at the Eglinton Street/Albert Street/Old Station Road junction, but the N20 ending at Carroll’s Quay makes complete sense to me.

The N22 and N8 are different stories. The N22 up until Victoria Cross ‘feels’ like an N road, as does the N8 until it reaches Silversprings/North Ring. That, to me, is when they become regular city centre streets and not national roads. Think of the N22. Why should Western Road heading into the city centre be a national road, while Wilton Road heading to the N40 not be? And why is Sarsfield Road, a median separated four lane dual carriageway connecting to the N40, not be a national road? To me, Victoria Cross Road, at the junction of Western Road and Wilton Road, feels like the natural end to the N22. You have reached Cork City Centre now. Likewise, the N8 at the junction of the North Ring Road feels like the end of the national road and start of the city centre streets. I would end both roads there. Especially with the plans to make Horgan’s Quay a livable, recreational quayside rather than a main road

This also raises the question though - what is the benefit of a road being an N road, and what is the benefit of being detrunked?

hans aus dtschl

I'd suggest that the proposed new bridge over the river from the N8 will make it even more complicated in the future too. Tivoli will all be developed as residential and there are houses directly on the dual carriageway too, I'd be inclined to say the 100kmh dual carriageway here is excessive, personally.

KrisW1001

The “benefit” of an N road is funding. TII directly pays for the upkeep of N roads from Dept of Transport funds. All other roads are maintained by the local authorities.

Having a few main arteries in the city paid for by someone else suits Cork City Council very nicely,thank you.

There's an argument to be made that there should be no N-roads inside of the N40, as is the case with Dublin and N50: thus N27 would become a spur of N40 serving Cork Airport, and N8 would end at Dunkettle, like N25 does.

DylanQuestion

Signage is being upgraded across the city at the moment, and I was wondering if the changes to the road network and signage mean that MacCurtain Street could be detrunked. It serves no purpose as being part of the N8. The N8 starts at the northern end of Patrick Street, where the N22 (Patrick Street) and N20 (Lavitts Quay) meet. It then goes over Patrick's Bridge, down MacCurtain Street and up Lower Glanmire Road. However, at the N22/N20 junction, the N8 also goes down Merchant's Quay, Anderson's Quay and up Ship Street (as the R854) to the Lower Glanmire Road (back to the N8). Signage coming from the south (N27/R610) directs those going to Dublin onto Ship Street from Custom House Street/Anderson's Quay from Parnell Place, west (N22) directs onto Merchant's Quay ("All Other Routes") and north (N20) onto Merchant's Quay ("Dublin"). Signage on MacCurtain Street referring to it as the N8 was removed in the recent street upgrade works. If Ship Street was changed from R854 to N8, doesn't that mean there is no need for MacCurtain Street to be the N8?

Although, then you need to think what the point is if there is no real world indicators that it is the N8, just on Google Maps

KrisW1001

There are funding implications for de-trunking. Also, and more importantly, some routes do traverse the city centre without any other alternative national route :N8-N20 is a very good example, but also N27-N20. Until there's another way to do these connections on the National network, the routing will stay as it is.

Ignore Google Maps: it has quite a few errors. The latest full list of definitions are in this statuatory instrument, : https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2012/si/53/made/en/print

However, subsequent S.I.s have amended these descriptions as new sections of the National Road network are commissioned.

If you just want a map, then https:/geohive.ie has the routes more accurately labelled.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121860003#Comment_121860003

I think N8:N20 would be better done via the R635 personally.

KrisW1001

I agree, but R635 is not part of the National Road network.

The reason N8, N27, N22 and N20 go so deep into Cork city is that they all interconnect within Cork city: A National Road Network with gaps in it wouldn't be a "network". If you came from Cork Airport, wanting to go to Limerick, it's very useful for your navigation that N27 meets N8, and N8 meets N20. Without that interconnection on "green signs", you're left hunting for your destination on local signage, which, being local, may not mention it.

In Dublin, N50 (or M50 as we know it) does the job of connecting the "Dublin" ends of the national road network, so there's no need for those roads to enter the city. (Remember that these roads don't just serve Dublin - if you travel from Waterford to Belfast, you will be heading towards Dublin for the first half of your journey, but you won't want to go in to the city).

N40 North, whenever it happens, will provide a National Road linking all the routes that converge on Cork , and that is when we can de-trunk those routes. Not before.

DylanQuestion

I completely agree with the above comment, however I think my proposal to de-trunk MacCurtain Street still stands if Ship Street is ’promoted’ to be N8. As you mentioned, there is a potential funding loss then, but it would help further discourage people from using MacCurtain Street as a main car route (as was the plan with all the recent upgrades). If this was to happen:

1. All N roads would connect at either Patrick Street or Custom House Street, meaning no need to go to MacCurtain Street
2. All green signage directs you to this route anyway, not MacCurtain Street, so there would be no major change that way

KrisW1001

It seems like a lot of effort for little gain. Rerouting or detrunking needs a statutory instrument, and to be honest, the Government has a lot more important things to get through, even in transport, than this...

The current situation will be fine until N40 North Ring is done.

niloc1951

The N and R routes are the replacements for the old T (Trunk) and L (Link) routes which pre-existed them until the 1960's

As a rule the T routes terminated at the city or town centres, often where the General Post Office was located. Hence the N8, for example, terminating in Partick Street at the Cork end.

The original Cork - Dublin route, the T25, ran through a more eastern route than the the N8 did.