Van Moof Gone Bang..

Junior

It looks like Van Moof have run out of money and are insolvent

https://mastodon.notsobig.co/@phill/110701490478043590

heebusjeebus

Could be caused by the recent increases in interest rates.

Rad Bikes have just announced they are pulling out of Europe and focusing on just the US following recent issues and a recall of the rad wagon tryes.

ted1

disappointing, i was looking at getting one

iwillhtfu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120845568#Comment_120845568

I'd imagine it's more to do with their price point. Although the ridiculous prices seemed some what acceptable in an industry where prices are a farce. Every other week young lads in the club rolling up on €5k+ bikes it's eye watering the money some folks spend.

I think I've only seen one Van moof in the wild and the the marker hotel had a fleet of them for guests at one point.

Junior

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120845726#Comment_120845726

https://www.theverge.com/2023/7/12/23792143/vanmoof-e-bike-payment-suspension-bankruptcy-sale

There's more info there, but I think it's a combination of things, price point, unwilligness to use standard parts, having to warranty repair etc. It all seemed a bit we know better than everyone else..

cletus

Yeah, the comments in the link above seem to point to issues with repairs, proprietary parts etc.

the_amazing_raisin

Kinda reminds me of this article

https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2023/02/can-we-make-bicycles-sustainable-again.html

Long story short, expensive bikes aren't as good for the environment as they could be because they use a lot of unsustainable materials and are difficult to repair due to using non standard parts.

This is on top of being manufactured and shipped from China to Europe

To be clear, they're still way less polluting than cars and I don't think we're realistically going to go back to all steel bikes made in Europe

I think companies like VanMoof and Radpower are becoming victims of some of the decisions they've made. Using proprietary parts and charging the price of a car for a bike leads to a fairly narrow demographic of people willing to throw their money into one

The rest of us will probably be looking for something more budget friendly and that we can get parts for if/when they break without a 6 months backlog

mailforkev

I think it’s been coming for a while unfortunately, some poor decisions at the top have compounded existing issues around reliability of the earlier SX3 models and global financial and logistics issues. So many proprietary parts really didn’t help

It’s a pity if they disappear, both myself and wife have one. I had an early gearing issue with mine that they resolved quickly, wife’s has been perfect. Apart from that one issue, my S3 has been great over the last 2.5+years, best thing I bought in 2020 by a mile. Mind you, the pricing really crept up, ours were only €2k each new.

There’s plenty of them in Dublin. I know another couple with two and I see others in my locality and on my commute regularly enough.

CramCycle

I realise they have a certain aesthetic but whenever I look at them, all I can think is, that is a really good LC metalwork project. It has issues but it does the job. I do see a few on my commute though, funnily enough in the last week alone I passed several every morning.

Londonirish72

Sadly I have an S5 on order. No communication from the company. I guess I am a creditor but I'm also hoping that some sort of rescue will be arranged. I'll keep this thread updated if I hear anything and I would appreciate if others would do the same.

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120849773#Comment_120849773

You're a creditor all right, but unfortunately you are an unsecured creditor.

Essentially Banks, investment companies, employees, tax revenue etc. are secured creditors, so they get their money back first.

As an unsecured creditor, you're at the bottom of the pile, and there's no guarantee that you'll get your money back.

I'd be starting whatever the application process is to get your money back early, rather than hoping that someone steps in and saves them.

Schorpio

I'm surprised to be honest. When I was in Amsterdam last year, they were everywhere.

Considered getting one when I was ebike shopping 18 months ago. I was close to pulling the trigger, but (as a home mechanic!) the amount of bespoke parts put me off, and in the end I went for something that was as 'standard' as possible.

Mr. Cats

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120849773#Comment_120849773

sorry to hear that. If you’ve used your credit card for the order it might be worthwhile checking with visa/Mastercard asap in case they can block payment.

Londonirish72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120849895#Comment_120849895

Thanks for the advice but VM took the payment early this year and the delivery date has slipped and slipped...

Feel a mug for not investigating more but they seem to be everywhere so that was enough confirmation for me.

Mr. Cats

It’s worth a try anyway. If you paid with credit card I think you have some level of insurance included.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120850123#Comment_120850123

Should be able to start a chargeback and get it started ASAP

cletus

Deleted post

Londonirish72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120850208#Comment_120850208

Decent advice. I have started the process with my credit card company and, initially at least, they are taking it seriously.

artanevilla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120851338#Comment_120851338

They will take it seriously as it's a credit card which means it's technically their money, not yours. Debit card you would have more trouble.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120849848#Comment_120849848

If it’s on the credit card it’s an easy reversal

Thelonious Monk

They're all over Paris and London too. I looked into buying one but they seemed overly complicated to me. You need phone apps etc. to work the things I think. F*ck that. V happy with the Decathlon one I got, no frills, 5000km on it since last year and no problems at all.

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120851532#Comment_120851532

Yep, and thankfully it seems it is for this poster

tomasrojo

I've seen a few around Dublin. I quite like the ready-to-go integrated lights. Proprietary parts are best avoided though, as the second thing I thought about the lights, after how convenient they looked, was: I wonder how easy to replace those are. I do own a Brompton, it has to be said, but they have a compelling reason for all the proprietary parts.

iwillhtfu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120853720#Comment_120853720

Unfortunately the front light which does look neat integrated into the frame was never a great design. The direction of the light doesn't follow the steering so basically you could find yourself going around a bend with the light illuminating the ditch. 🙈

tomasrojo

Ah, of course. I have similar on my bakfiets. I added a light fixture to the box and there's the original light on the fork crown, and the two beams diverge when I'm turning corners.

the_amazing_raisin

Looks like some of the competitors are stepping in with trade in offers or ways to unlock the bikes without the app

https://electrek.co/2023/07/14/rival-e-bike-brands-find-creative-solutions-for-vanmoof-e-bikes/

CantGetNoSleep

I'd say that is in part trying to avoid a domino-effect. If one of these brands were to end up as junk for example if an app stopped working, you would imagine that many people would reconsider purchasing such a bike with a lot of non-standard parts and connected features. At the moment it is hard to see how you would keep these bikes on the road if the company were to go broke. You wouldn't say the same about a bike with Shimano or SRAM components and a motor from one of the big brands

magicbastarder

The notion of buying a bike whose use is tied to an app is a little alien to me.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120858824#Comment_120858824

I'd disagree, I think it is just clever marketing and a nice sideline for the business. If VM do tank, Blurby have a load of bikes to back engineer parts and provide service for a load of bikes that very few others will touch. Even if they don't tank (they most likely will), Blurby have a load of free advertising, establishing themselves as a positive, we will look after you brand. It is a win win, a load of potential VM buyers will go for them on that alone.

A quick glance at Blurby, if they fold, a quick glance says they are still a serviceable bike that will be usable even if they do fail.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120853720#Comment_120853720

You shouldn’t have to replace LED lights

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120858917#Comment_120858917

Yeah I get the convenience factor, but there really needs to be a backup option.

Like maybe a key, or is that too last century?

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120859355#Comment_120859355

are LED lights not capable of failing?

Cetyl Palmitate

So these bikes are totally locked without some interaction with an app?

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120859663#Comment_120859663

There is an open source work around for it but technically yes. The competitor is taking advantage of the fact that you can work around it.

tomasrojo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120859355#Comment_120859355

I had to replace the LED headlight on my bakfiets. It took over six years of constant use, but it went eventually.

iwillhtfu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120859631#Comment_120859631

Yep, like an electrical component they have a shelf life and will eventually fail. The life span is usually very long though and will be dependent on use. I'd be more concerned with water ingress or something effecting it first.

tomasrojo

Just on the problem with bespoke parts (not a bespoke part, but a very particular part in this case). Brompton had a major crisis early on when the manufacturer of Sturmey-Archer hubs looked as if it was going under (can't remember whether it was S-A itself, or an Asian manufacturer that had taken over production), and they started trucking in as may of the hubs as they could find and hoarding them. It must have seemed an unlikely problem when they started, as those hubs had been ubiquitous in England for most of the 20th century.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861608#Comment_120861608

We've had a few in the house fail. Though I suspect it could be an inbuilt transformer rather than the bulb itself.

Londonirish72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120859716#Comment_120859716

Think the app is now live for iPhones with an Android version in the works.

Separately, my cc company has come good and has refunded me the full cost of the Van Moof that I no longer expect to receive.

I can't believe that I am asking this but any views on Cowboy bikes?

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120862464#Comment_120862464

A good outcome

iwillhtfu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120862464#Comment_120862464

That's great news.

I know noting about cowboy bikes but looking at the clips on their website none of those riding the bike look comfortable on it. 🤣

They all look to be following a similar design model so I'd imagine more or less the same as VM. Must be the hipster in me but I think they'd look cool with a set of mag wheels 🤷‍♂️🤣

CantGetNoSleep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120862464#Comment_120862464

Cowboy get mixed feedback - they do have an odd riding position but others love how simple they are to ride with no gears etc, and some think they look cool. They also seem to have reliability issues, and I'd wonder where you would get to fix them in Ireland.

I would have the exact same concerns about them as I would about Van Moof though - reliance on an app, and non-standard parts. They are burning through cash so hard to tell if they will still be around in two years. Even if there are solutions to keep the app up and running, outside of the frame and steerer you have the battery, controller / electronics, lights & torque sensor which are all proprietary, and the motor seems to be some sort of customised Bafang. Any of these could go and if they do, if the company doesn't exist anymore there is a huge risk of a worthless single speed bike. When they first launched they were 1500 euro-ish, but they are no longer any cheaper than something with Shimano / Bosch parts.

Canyon Precede for example has a Bosch motor / battery and Shimano drivetrain for 1000 euro less. Canyon are also annoying for proprietary parts but I would be more confident in them sticking around for 5 years than Cowboy. Or you could pick up something like a Cube from a local bike store and have somewhere to bring it back to whenever anything goes wrong

magicbastarder

Vanmoof gone bangier

https://www.theverge.com/2023/7/18/23798584/vanmoof-e-bikes-is-bankrupt

Junior

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120865232#Comment_120865232

Gone from being dropped into the Broomwagon.. You'd wonder would someone buy the IP and fold it into an existing bike range, and use stuff that can be serviced.

munchkin_utd

Its a wonder they didnt go bust quicker.

Leaving aside their proprietary parts and issues with servicing, it seems that the motor was not terribly powerful so for anywhere with hills (so, places where a motor would be of use) you'd be better off with a proper electric bike with a bosch or similar motor.

And leaving that aside, how do you charge it ? The vast majority of city dwellers in Europe live in an apartment and you cannot simply bring a lump of a bike up the stairs into your gaff. You park it outside or if you are lucky in a bike cellar - neither of which have power available.

And leaving that aside, the cool looking version of the bike is FAR to flippin big, and the others look quite ugly.

So, if you own a house, and are 6foot or over, and dont have too many hills, and are prepared to over 3grand for a bike thats not as powerful as other options at the price point - you'd be the target market for a van moov - which was never a long term business case.

magicbastarder

You can't take the battery out to charge it? and i thought the motor was a standard 250W job, i.e. EU legal.

Londonirish72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120865493#Comment_120865493

Battery is in the crossbar and is not removable for charging. Not an issue for me but when I was in Amsterdam recently there were dozens of VanMoofs locked up outside appt blocks and houses. I guess people charge them at work...

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120862116#Comment_120862116

You need to look up a YouTuber named Big Clive, he does teardowns of electronics, including several LED bulbs

In general the LEDs should last years, but due to some....cost savings, the regulation of current through them isn't great

So they sort of get slow cooked in the cheap LED bulbs and fail after a few years

Ironically the best LED bulbs are only sold in Dubai, they're specifically made by Philips and were commissioned by the Sheikh. They're a much more robust design, and of course costs considerably more

As part of the deal, Philips were only allowed to sell the bulbs in Dubai for the first 5 years or something

Flinty997

I know a few owners. I has a spin on one. You don't really need a lot of power\torque if you are only commuting around the city.

Junior

https://www.theverge.com/24009091/vanmoof-scooter-next-steps-parts-service-e-bikes

Back from the brink, perhaps, or not. A kitesurfing Ceo isn't neccessarily an asset.