Can the council force you to paint the inside of your home (Laois coco)
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05-07-2023 6:08pm#1
My mother lives in a 2 bed semi detached in Laois and had done for nearly 27 years ago (only because of s messy separation, judge sided with my father, and let him keep the home, even though my mother was found separation was not her fault), she is nearly 70, she supports my brother (along with myself, brother is disabled, so a part time student job fit him is hard to come by, however hopefully the course he's doing will help him gain employment at the end of his course) who goes to college, so her pension is decimated,
How this came about was, she bought a new to her car and left her old one out in a parking slot outside the house, she tried to sell it but no avail, she did declare it off road, apparently a neighbour reported it and council officials came out and told her to get rid of it, which she obliged, on the day she invited them to come in, and they did, and she brought them in the kitchen,
A couple of weeks later 2 other officials came by, one identified himself as a social worker, working for the council, and a woman said she was a general officer, they thanked her for getting rid of the car, then proceeded to tell her as per her tenancy agreement, they have a right to inspect the property at a suitable time, in fairness they asked was it suitable and asked if she had to be anywhere, mother replied no, told them to do their thing, they said fine thank you and asked her to accompany them with pen and paper, according to my mother they were happy with everything, apart from a wardrobe that had no door, mother explained she had it took off for ease of access, they thought it was unusable/clutter even though the social worker remarked that it seemed organised, there also was a crack in 2 steps in the stairs, they asked if she logged the issue, which she said she did but also said the council knew since the day they got the house(as in before the keys were handed over) and they got a bit frazzled and said a house wouldn't be supplied like that and they'd look into it, went outside, were happy apart from a single dog stool, was told that stools attract vermin and should picked up immediately, mother says ok that's fair enough, she must of missed it and they said be vigilant,
Then they went back into the house and they told my mother the previous officials and themselves were of the view that the inside of the property needed a makeover(just to say in the moment my mother thought the council were going to give the house a makeover), they said that that house needed to be painted top to bottom, so skirting boards, doors, ceilings walls etc, they said that they couldn't understand why the outside of the house looked so good, I paint it for my mother every 3 years, they said it looked fabulous outside, but as you cane in the house it looked tired and depressing, my mother refuted that, saying she couldn't understand it, it's her and my brother's home they live in it, the officials said oh it wouldn't be nice for people coming to the home, my mother said well if her friends and visitors aren't happy they knew where the door is and she said she had no complaints anyway, the council official got somewhat frustrated and said when did you last paint the interior and could she prove it, my mother said in January 2016 and had the receipts of the paint to prove it, they said to her oh I paint my home at least every 2 years and at best every year, my mother said nice when you can afford it, my mother says they were even banging on about colour schemes, however they can't tell her what colours to use, that was grand that was back in the first week of April, 11 days ago, the same pair came back out didn't even say hello once my mother opened the door, just one of them said ah Marilyn(mother's name) why didn't you paint the place, the mother said well she checked her contract, went to both her local councillor and TD sought advice and was told that she can't be forced to paint, and also stated that she physically wouldn't be able to do it now at her age(I'm ok painting outdoors, no good indoors), and that she wouldn't be able to afford it or somebody to do it, she pointed out she can just about keep the home clean, in fairness they said her home was immaculately clean, but harshly reiterated that the interiors had to be painted, irregardless of her opinion of those judging her, or what she thinks, they didn't even come in, a day later 2 different officials came out, one saying she was the head social officer for Laois CoCo and the other was something to do with the management of tenants and council properties, they were nice enough to begin with, they asked did she smoke, my mother never has, they said there is a yellowish tint on the walls, my mother couldn't understand that as none of her walls are white or light colours, her ceilings are a pale shade of green, they actually questions her about that, she bought it in b&q and it said wall and ceiling, and she actually had an old bucket in her shed proving that, they said that ceilings should be normally white,cream or magnolia, mother stated that nowhere in her contract did it say what colour she should or shouldn't have painted the house, they didn't no what to say so left it, they then went onto to tell her that although the radiators are not rusting, they had to be painted, now I had to laugh when they told her that, she told them to feck off the house came with no central heating and she at the time of getting the house, was in a position to buy and pay for the installation of the radiators, so the radiators had nothing to do with them, nor had the interior or exterior doors, the house had double glazing but the old draughty wooden doors were left in place, the old interior doors had dropped and warped slightly, my mother replaced them all with "fire" doors, they said oh technically they are ours, because if quit tenancy, she had to leave them put, the mother said, actually the old ones are neatly in the shed, nothing stopping me putting them back up, it's wrote on them what door goes where, She said she would probably remove the heating system also, SFR said that the alluminium front and back doors, copper pipes and rads would make a generous amount in a scrapyard and she'd leave the place exactly as she got it, according to mother they didn't what to say, they just forget the radiators, well along with stating oh we thought we installed them, the mother just said well your not doing your homework, and that they wouldn't benefit from her,
They then said they noted that the stairs and landing floors and one bedroom floor are pine and uncovered and they should be sealed/varnished to prevent them from rotting and protect them from wear and tear, the mother says ok fine, and they reiterated that the place needed fresh paint, said it'd be nice to do for people visiting, the mother told me she told them she'll do what she can, they sighed and left,
The floors I done for that weekend, sanded them down etc, so all good there, I told my mother I'd buy her paint for the house, colours she wanted, etc, she said no, that the TD and councillor said no she didn't necessarily have to paint, bearing in mind she instructed the TD and councillor not to interfere, she just wanted advice, so I left it,
However yesterday the original officials came out, they were nice enough, said they came to the conclusion that she couldn't afford paint, my mother neither agreed or disagreed with them, they then told her they would be providing the paint, 5 shades, one specifically for the ceilings and waterproof paint for the bathroom, 3 shades for where she wanted, they even gave her paint for the doors, skirting, radiators,even the floorboards along with other materials she would need, such as rollers, sandpaper, paintbrushes, etc she has been given till the end of the month to complete the works, and once again stated it'll be nice for visitors to be welcomed into a fresh crisp home, that's the bit that gets me, I mean I can't understand why they are so worried about visitors to the home, like I mentioned she keeps a clean home in general and even the council commended her cleanliness, I of course agree with my mother, she has to live there, in my opinion there were scuff marks, in some cases especially in her kitchen, there are cracks in the paint and in one small patch where you'd really have to focus, paint peeling/flaking in the corner ceiling of the main bathroom, I think it's mad, such a big deal, when they could've focused their resources elsewhere, and without passing judgement, I've a few friends in council properties and I've seen worse things, gardens gone wild, sheds stuffed with rubbish, even dog stools everywhere some growing mold! One friend who goes through cars like no tomorrow, has at least 11 cars in the yard rusting away, like I said I don't judge, I'm the type that will visit you, I don't care about what state your home is in, as long as I don't get killed in it, my mother being the same.
I call it nonsensical, it doesn't make sense to me, like does it really bother the council officials if the place is freshly painted or not, are they being nit picky, or maybe my mother was unluckily targeted. I don't know...
My partner, mother, myself, friends and others will paint the house, but all involved, are flabbergasted and are wondering even when a TD and councillor said no need to paint, does it really have to be done and can the council forcibly make you Paint interiors...
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Some people have jobs that shouldn't even exist, what a waste of everyone's time money and effort.
I wonder do any of the people involved have an involvement with a paint supplier?
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that story is almost unbelievable !
sad but true - it is Ireland after all 😓
and what do they do about the miscreants living in Council houses?? 🤣🤣
would they say anything like this to a Dean or Jacinta:
"there's a piece of poop outside , and a door missing off yer cabinet , a crack in the wall and an unpainted living room (FFS),,,,, get your act together or else we'll install someone else here... "
seriously doubt it
one (every rule under t'sun ) rule for the righteous , and the savage ("oh, nothing can be done about them; sure don't they HAVE to live somewhere!!" , they would proclaim) classes can do whatever they want 😒
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That's my thinking, strange jobs, and more and more being invented everyday, I'm a gardener/horticulturist but no degrees because I know what I'm doing, I don't need to do a course/degree, it'd be a complete waste of time...
I was thinking that also, but they initially wanted my mother to buy paint etc, saying they had no budget, nevertheless I thought it was unusual that paint suddenly became available,
A friend suggested they are hardly after the house, because my friend said his aunt in Portlaoise was living in a 3 bed house on her own(husband passed, children flown the nest), and was asked did she want to downsize, I'm not sure of the whole story, but she declined, stating she didn't want to start again(she's 74, frail enough for her age) and get memories were in the house, and apparently nothing the council could do, as in they can't force someone out, but apparently they made her paint also, inside and out, she had to even demolish and remove a shed that was there and approved by the council nearly 45 years ago, seemingly it was a death trap, it was her turf shed, also had to trim bushes and trees, and was told to completely remove some, saying that they were a danger and imposed a threat to the structure of her house, I'm not being funny but no special Investigations were made by specialists, I mean all they were is what's called council officials, they are not engineers or tree doctors or whatever, poor woman was way more stressed out than my mother, she can't prove it, but one official told my friends aunt that if she moved it would have been a lot easier for her, when I say she can't prove it it's the council officials word against hers, they back each other up and never mind my mother or friends aunt, in my line of work, I don't overcharge, and I've done work for council tenants in Laois and surrounding counties, and the things they tell me, the council could come out ask for things 5i be done, etc, tenant might say X Y z, ok I'll do this but give me time, council agrees or whatever, but then they come back earlier that stated, the tenant will say oh sorry I didn't get a chance to do this that or the other, council officials will say oh said it'll be done last we, you said this that and the other, and the tenant may never had said anything of the sort, council officials will twist words and say things to suit themselves, treat the tenants like crap and the officials think they are god's gift and can look down on you, because if this debacle, I looked into things, council tenants actually have less rights than somebody renting private property, as I mentioned in my original post the council asked my mother could they come in, but they can actually come at anytime without notice, if needs be force their way in with warrant, in fact I know of a family that happened too, the officials wanted to inspect the property and that was it, something to do with overcrowding/unsanctioned occupant's, shout questions who sleeps where, in what room, ages, of everyone in the House, where they worked went to school, God knows what else, it turned out all above board, council gave no apologies...
Complete and utter madness, just thinking how rte is being investigated, the local authorities should be also, terrorising tenants, victimising them, discrimination, discrediting tenants, making them feel like villains, amongst other things, a law unto themselves!!!
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I wish it were unbelievable, I'm lucky not to be in my mothers position and friends, etc,
I wouldn't like to live in Terror, alright they don't seem to visit everyone, or as you put it, certain people get away with it, and they won't touch them, the mind boggles.
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I might be missing something here, but they are providing all the paint and materials necessary to make the place a nicer place for your mother to live, all you have to do is round up a few people and crack on?
I'd be saying thank you very much, she will be happier with the place cleaned up and a bit brighter.
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Not a nice way to treat a 70 year old pensioner. I don't know how the councils work but can't believe they can force a tenant to paint the whole house unless there is something in the contract that says the tenant is responsible for the maintenance of the interior.
I know council tenants are not linked to the RTB but are the rules for council landlords very different from private landlords? Can't see how a private landlord could demand that their tenant should paint the house.
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It strikes me that they are turning up demanding entry with no notice. That wouldn't be legal for a private landlord, it surely can't be for the Council. It's borderline harassment and I'd be pursuing.
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It's the way they went about it, my mother felt she was being persecuted, forced into something she does not need to really do, a TD and councillor even knows she doesn't have to, contract doesn't even say she has to, TD and councillor checked contract to confirm, and they council officials had an obsession with the ceilings being green, although and she didn't have to prove(d) it was ceiling paint, her words were that she felt pressured and cajoled into doing this, and now if we do actually paint she said it won't feel like home as the colours aren't ones she'd go for, they are could neutral colours, she likes warm bold colours, bear in mind they told her in an angry tone they hadn't the budget to provide her with paint, then all of a sudden they did because they came to the conclusion that she couldn't afford it, and then they have the audacity to declare that X Paint is for the ceilings, and y for the bathroom, colours she wouldn't go for, that was never the point, I would have provided the paint, the pressure is immense, I mean if somebody told me I had less than a month to Paint everything in my home, professionals in or not it would take longer,
She was also told it should be done properly, they did say not professionally but properly and to the councils standard, and was told that the radiators and doors may have been installed by her, she had a duty to keep them maintained as it's a council property, and reiterated that a home should look nice and fresh, it's not nice for visitors to come to a home and see such dull colours, that's what bugs me, I'd understand if the doors were installed by the council, and rads, even though there is nothing wrong with them, and I'm not saying that because I'm her son, I'm in my house 14+ years(I own my home) and I've never painted my rads and my doors got one lick of paint by my partner a few years ago, and they still look good, never painted the ceiling and in the 14+ years we painted twice after originally moving in, 2019 being the last time we painted interior,
You'd think the my mother's place was a hotel or something, I'm wondering are the council going to come and have a conference in my mothers house, seriously though, my mother's friends who do visit the home think it's madness, some thought my mother was joking about it all, we wish,
My partner's brother and sister in law and 3 kids got a council home 11 years ago in Offaly, when they were given the keys the official told them at the time although it was council property, it was their home and they could do what they wanted with it, make it their home and all that, obviously as long as they didn't make major structural changes, but could change doors, windows, etc, their contract actually stated that they could paint it which way they want...
I know I specified Laois county council, but I wonder does anyone else anything to share about their local authority,
I should add that I am in fact a private landlord, and I let my tenants paint their homes any way they'd like, even move around the furniture or if they've some and there is space for it I allow it, in between tenants I get a professional to paint the properties neutral colours, however I know nothing of the councils practices, yet I know I'd never invade a tenant privacy like mother's has been invaded, and remember on more than one occasion, in all honesty I've little or no interaction with my tenants, rents paid into an account, I'm lucky that I don't get complaints, as I maintain my properties to the highest standard and I purchase quality appliances, not cheap knock offs....
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I don't know if I done it correctly, but attachment is a screenshot from Laois county council's tenancy handbook which can be viewed online via PDF
Screenshot basically says amongst other things that,
"Authorised officers of the council, and agents of the council, must be allowed to enter and inspect the dwelling at reasonable times to carry out necessary work. (Always request id)
Its a but vague, but there is no mention of having to give notice they might be coming, my view is a reasonable time is say 9-5, and the way it's worded, 'must be allowed' insinuates tenant doesn't really have a choice, that silly, if I tried to incorporate that into one of my tenants contract I'd be told where to go, and I wouldn't try to, I mean even I think it unusual that even someone could even walk into my home when they felt like it, I wouldn't be long about telling them to get out.
I can't find out online whether or not the council have to give notice for a property inspection for its tenants,
It comes up that they, council, can inspect private property, which I know already,
It's so vague, loads of state bodies are though, aren't they...
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If it's a house you own. The council have absolutely no say n how you decorate it, as I'm sure you know.
Being a tenant, it's not as clear cut. Typically it is the landlords obligation to main a property that they lease to a tenant. But council leases are not always typical. It could be part of a lease agreement the the tenant agrees to maintain every X years. All you have to do is check the agreement, unless their is specifically a clause where your mother has agreed to paint/maintain every 3 years, then this the councils obligation. And they've determined there it is not up to standard. They own your mother a make over.
Somebody's age, or anything like that is not relevant to the above. Don't let it be an emotional issue. It's a simple contract issue.
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OP councils in Ireland don't have social workers. They have housing officers, who typically have far too much to do to be making multiple visits to tenants who are paying the rent and not causing trouble. Decoration of the interior is 100% tenant responsibility.
And in the real world, no one I know paints inside every 5 years, it would be a total waste.
Your whole story sounds kinda off.
Are you sure it's not some kind of welfare check on your mam's ability to care of your brother?
Can you say that you or someone else needs to be there the next time they visit - and check the ID very carefully to see who issued it?
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Poster has a bit of a history posting on here with far fetched situations and seeking advice.
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Were they definitely from the council? Did your mother ask for identification ?
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Some people lead overly complicated lives, and local authorities try to complicate things even more. 😛
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Whilst that maybe true, my partner(whom I care for) used to genuinely be using my phone, I still let her in fact, yet this thread was me,
Believe me or not, she has many problems, including an acquired brain injury, has done since a teen, I knew all about her when I met her, in other words I knew whom I was taking on, she is vulnerable and has poor coping skills, easily taken advantage of, poor mental health, suffers terrible breakdowns she can't help, she is slightly older than me, I'm 32, she was treated unfairly and unreasonably by past partners, unlucky or what, that she got involved with predators, 2 of whom were jailed for mistreatment of her, jailed with my help, historical crime(s),etc (I say that because she has posted with my account before asking hypothetical questions and I can only assume it was her looking for answers or insight of her stupid exes), in saying that she is fair from stupid, and can come up with all sorts and post stuff on boards, she even will take my phone and post to Facebook, she knows to be more careful on FB because people see my real name, whereas she knows she can hide behind my username, if and when she can't access my phone I think she has set up numerous boards accounts and has posted all sorts of hypothetical things, yet I know there is rules and everything, but I like to live in a world where no judgement to be made, no prejudice, and no matter your mental capacity, you should be treated equally, warts and all, I understand my post history is somewhat sketchy, but hand on heart I only created a 4 or 5 "new discussions" you don't have to believe me, up to you, everyone is entitled to their opinion,
But right now it's me, the actual account holder, who at the time of joining FB was for the Fair City thread, ranting and raving section, and for somewhat general browsing,
I'm a gardener/horticulturist, own my/our own home, no children, I'm a landlord, oh and I'm schizophrenic, coupled with mild depression and anxiety, all under control since my mid teens, lucky enough to be ok otherwise, as I say lucky enough to have the properties, they were my dad's, yet I'm humble, I never cast judgement or form unwarranted opinions, I help others when and where I can, I don't know everything, I still see myself as a young unwise young man, I know I don't have to explain myself, and I thank all that has genuinely assisted me with this thread, and those that will continue to do so.
My apologies for taking the thread of track, but I felt I had to reply and provide somewhat of an explanation.
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Thanks for your reply,
Oh yes I know that, re owning my home, I was using it as an example, I'll admit I can over explain things, it's in my nature, I'm worse in real life lol,
whilst I understand your last paragraph, and I get that, except it's not in the contract whatsoever, and like I've repeatedly mentioned it's not necessary the way the council went about it, putting the fear of God into someone is not right, and be smart and rude ain't nice either, I'll admit the mother got somewhat smart also about the rads and doors, which she installed herself, the way she say it was they are hers as she paid for them, in her mind the council has no right to tell her what to do with them.
Also as I've stated a few times, one minute the council hadn't the money to supply paint, the next they did, and then stating the ceilings have to be painted white, bathroom a off grey colour, the wooden floors instruction odd also, like I've pointed out the officials seemed to have a huge problem with the light green ceiling paint, and the colour scheme in general, and basically with no mention of it in her tenancy agreement or anything that the house has to be painted, only outside and that is why I mentioned it in the original post, I paint outside for her, as I say the mind boggles...
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It sounds to me as though they were perhaps a council team doing inspections with the intention of giving out free materials but your mother was continually pulling against.
Perhaps day one if your mother had simply said, I cannot afford painting but if the council could help, that would be great, they would likely have immediately volunteered the materials. If not a le to physically do it, they may provide the painter too.
I definitely think it's worth while working with them to see how it plays out.
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What came first: the civil-servant pension warmer or the perpetual worry-wort who can't leave the phone alone?
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Thanks for your reply Mrs OBumble,
I agree with you in your first paragraph,in the sense that's what I thought, however in actual the TD we involved, because we asked do councils hire social workers and he said they do and and as far as he knew Laois CoCo employs at least 3, however reading you reply I decided to Google it, do local authorities employ social workers, and they in fact they do, I copied and pasted the following from Laois CoCo website,
"The Social Worker works as part of a multi-disciplinary team within the Housing Department of Laois County Council."
Some good advice I was given when telling a friend about the dilemma, is to ring the CoCo and see what the role of the council social worker is, or even I go along with my mother one day to meet the housing manager, I asked my mother, however she's terrified, she thinks she'll lose the home, my mother told me that they do shoe her I'd and everytime they visited they bring a letter of instruction basically saying what they told her to do along with their cards with contact details, all official council letter heads, etc. My mother is not my brother's carer, nor does he have one, she just financially helps him with college, he drives, so she gives him money so he can put diesel in his van, and a few more bits and bobs, put it like this there is nothing wrong with me physically, but he's more able-bodied than I am lol, in fairness he learnt the hard way, but he adapts to things, he wasn't always classed as disabled, only in recent years, he developed a degenerative condition, manageable but serious enough...
Forgot to add that what you mentioned about someone else needs to be there, does make sense, I've asked mother to do that next time if she does happen to be on her own, which she was on her own all the time with the previous visits, she has agreed to that bit of advice as she has felt as she puts it intimidated, so thanks for that advice ☺️
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Totally understand where you are coming from, however when the painting malarkey came up, mother was told that she had to paint the place and that was it and that the council hadn't the budget to provide her paint, came out again, they got angry, seen that no effort was made painting as my mother knew she couldn't be forced, they left, came back the other day, with man in van and the words they came out off the officials mouth was they came to the conclusion that mother couldn't afford paint and they provided that day as man in van came with it, so one minute the council couldn't afford it, the next they could, now mother had till the end if the month (Friday 28th as per notice given in hand) to paint everything, woodwork,doors, rads, ceilings, varnish/seal floors which has been done the whole lot, and as I've mentioned before officials had an obsession with my mother's colour scheme, especially the ceilings, the paint my mother was given had labels on as to what shade of paint had to go where, she claims she told them that they were to take the paint back and if she really did have to paint she'd pick her own colours, officials said well it's here now and the mother just didn't bother arguing with them,
With my mother I don't think that it's not that she won't paint, it's just that the way the officials went about it seemingly forcing her, and telling what colours she should be using, when it's not in the tenancy agreement and when a TD and councillor even said she hadn't to do it...
I simply think the council have nothing better to do and are treating my mother like a project not a person...
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Do you know how much paint costs today?
Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth.
They own the property. They are supplying the paint. All your mother had to say was there is nobody able to paint here and I'm assuming she would have got it painted entirely free sooner or later seeing as they were so concerned about it.
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I think you are missing my point.
If it's in the contract, that is what was agreed to and she could be made to repaint at their discretion. I'm highlighting that if that's not the case, then it is the councils responsibility to paint that house. You can use that to make that pay for the lot, as they should imo.
But if that's the angle you are going. That its not in the contract and you mother doesn't have to paint the house, the council do. Then you lose the power to dictate to the council what colour they want the house painted. If it was a private rental, you wouldn't be able to tell the landlord what colour he can paint. If you wanted to change it, then you'd have to foot the bill.
It's kinda straight forward. Whoever is paying for the painting, should be the one able to pick the colour if they wish.
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I do, and I understand what you mean, it was never about the paint, the point is their attitude, and stating what shades it has to be and all, in my opinion and a couple of other posters agree, that's not on, I actually asked her tonight, did she flat out refuse to paint, in other words did she tell the officials she won't, she says she told them it'd be done in her own time, but did refuse the notion of painting the radiators and that she'd paint the walls and ceiling colours of her choice, she says at that point that's when they became disgruntled, I'm not looking for an argument, I know my posts can be long, but it was essentially advice I was looking for, re the apparent forcing my mother to paint her home, and in doing that I explained in detail what I knew, given the information I had/have, also as I pointed out many times the council stated that they hadn't the money to provide her with paint and then all of sudden did,
Nevertheless as we don't plan on starting the painting until Saturday when I am free, I'm going to ring Laois CoCo in the morning and see will they get somebody to do, seeing as they want it done to a certain standard, no point us doing it and it's not done to standards,
May I add that they may own the property, it's my mother's home/de facto property, that sane rule applies to me with my tenants, they rent from me, the property may be mine, but it's their home, and they can do as they please providing they don't damage the property, cause fire hazards, make structural changes without my permission, run a business from it and keep it reasonably tidy and clutter free, amongst other simple responsibilities...
And to add one more point, I can get paint for next to nothing, crown paints 2.5 litres at €5.01 each...
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Oh sorry read your initial reply in a bit of a rush and replied in a rush also, was working at the time.
That is a fair enough viewpoint, very valid also, thank you for your understanding and kind input,
Once again I apologise for not reading your initial reply correctly...
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Absolutely no issue. I understand there's a lot in the thread. Hopefully you get a resolution that works in your mother favour
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