Tax refund donations

doc22

I'm wondering how does someone who donates money to the plate on sunday, how can the church recieve taxback. Do they need to track my individual offering?

CramCycle

They can't as the plate has no record of who donated. It is not impossible that the envelopes could but they don't collect enough data to do that AFAIK.

Peregrinus

It's not just because they don't have the data. There would be no point in collecting the data because there is no right for either for the church to receive a tax refund or for the donor to claim a tax deduction.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120793956#Comment_120793956

That is not correct.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/companies-and-charities/charities-and-sports-bodies/charitable-donation-scheme/index.aspx

If a church has an envelope system then they track how much is donated thru that numbered envelope during the year.

At the end of the year if the total is 250 or more, someone (usually the secretary) contacts the person that envelope number is registered to, and asks for their PPSN. A claim, including the supplied numbrrs, is submitted to revenue who calculate if a refund is due.

In short, the church gets the refund, not you.

But if you do pay top-rate tax, then a donation of 250 or more is worth 40% more than you gave initially.

Peregrinus

Thanks, Mrs. O'B. That has changed since I last looked at it. It didn't used to be case that a regular parish or congregation could become an approved charity under the scheme; there were further qualifying conditions that had to be met, and that most parishes/congregations wouldn't meet. Evidently the scheme has been broadened.

doc22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120794512#Comment_120794512

It's the diocese rather than the parish that's approved. I did think the envelopes could track donations(as numbered) but to be honest I did think that they were more to anonymize donations in a envelope on sunday. I'd find it abit disconcerning that there's a spreadsheet in the parish analysing how much an individual donated during the year(and not for tax refund purposes). While I know you can donate online too(making in easy to track and claim refund) it looks bad if you put nothing in on a Sunday.

Thanks everyone for the responses.

Jellybaby_1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120795118#Comment_120795118

If you just put cash on the plate, it's anonymous. However, if you use a numbered envelope then yes, the number and your name are connected. At the end of the year all parishioners (CoI) can see a list of the numbered envelopes without names, and their total donations, however, only those involved in the parish finances have access to the names, one hopes!

martinedwards

certainly, in the North the envelopes are used to track every penny donated by an individual.

the church can then claim back the tax that that person paid PAYE, so for each £1 donated, they actually receive more like £1.40

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120793925#Comment_120793925

The plate here includes envelopes and there is a refund possible from those, once parishioners sign the appropriate form. Parishes recover considerable funds this way.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120795118#Comment_120795118

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120805502#Comment_120805502

Have these people ever heard of GDPR?

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120817023#Comment_120817023

Parishoners sign a form to allow the parishes claim the tax rebate on their donations. GDPR doesn't come into it.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120817023#Comment_120817023

There's no breach of GDPR if a parish — or any entity — keeps records of the income it receives. Commercial entities and entities subject to legal audit requirements are pretty much obliged to do it but, if if you don't have a legal obligation, keeping records of the people who provide your income and the amount they provide is certainly not a breach of GDPR. It's basic bookkeeping.

And, if those people give you their PPS numbers or whatever so that you can claim a tax refund in respect of their contributions, keeping a record of the PPS and using in to claim a refund is not a breach of GDPR. Using people's personal information for the purpose for which they gave it to you is fine.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120817251#Comment_120817251

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120817254#Comment_120817254

Where's the parish privacy statement? Where's their ROPAs? Where's their records of consent from donors?

Yes, it is possible to do all this and be GDPR compliant, but I'd be a plate full of €2 coins that they haven't done the work required to be compliant.

Tracing back envelopes on plates to donors sounds a bit creepy to me, tbh.

Jim_Hodge

You can bet all you like. Donors give permission. It's no different to any charity claiming back tax on donations. If you find it creepy them don't give or don't use an envelope.

Jellybaby_1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120817023#Comment_120817023

As Jim-Hodge said above, parishioners have to sign a form giving permission, this is so the parish can reclaim the tax. Plenty of people do it. Have you not come across it before in your parish?

doc22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120819740#Comment_120819740

The envelopes are identifying people before that permission is granted. Many would see the envelopes as a way to be discrete about amounts donated and not used to compile a spreadsheet with their name on it. Do you believe everyone who uses a envelope consented to be identified in such a way?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120819740#Comment_120819740

Well, no, like many people, I’m not involved in any parish, so I haven’t come across it.

Giving permission to reclaim tax doesn’t give permission for data processing. If they was to process data of donations, they need explicit consent to process data, or they need another legitimate purpose.

Jellybaby_1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120819822#Comment_120819822

Yes, in my parish. It's also a way to keep a check on how much you have yourself donated to the church and to make sure that what you have given over the year has actually been recorded and tallies with your own calculations. Nobody wants their donations to go 'missing', some put cash into the envelopes and some put cheques.

Jellybaby_1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120819826#Comment_120819826

Ah, I understand it's new to you, but what do you mean by 'data processing'? It's only used for recording donations which the parish is obliged to do, and to claim back tax which they have received permission for. The tax can only be claimed if the individual's donations are above a certain figure, €250 p.a. I think it is, might be changed by now.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120819897#Comment_120819897

Recording donations is 'data processing'.

Jellybaby_1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120819933#Comment_120819933

Ah, understood. They have permission to do this. I never heard of anybody complaining about it. If anyone prefers to be anonymous they can just put cash on the plate, but that could be seen as open to interference and nobody would be the wiser.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120817491#Comment_120817491

Well you'd be totally and utterly wrong. (It often happens when people comment about organisations that they have no contact with.)

There are simple ways to put all these things in place, and churches have been given templates to use. They keep records - and in my experience they learned from the lack of records for investigating child abuse claims and are now better at it than many businesses.

When people sign up to take a packet of numbered envelopes, they are effectively giving permission for the parish to keep records of what that envelope was used for. If a person doesn't want their data processed, it's easy: they can use cash on the plate, or in a plain un-numbered envelope.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820004#Comment_120820004

Where did they get permission to do this?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820080#Comment_120820080

There is no 'effectively giving' in GDPR consent. Consent must be "a specific, informed and unambiguous indication of the individual’s wishes". Effectively doesn't work.

Hotblack Desiato

When people sign up to take a packet of numbered envelopes

For the first couple of years after we moved into our current home, we periodically got a packet of numbered envelopes through the letterbox despite never signing up to anything. Presumably someone totting up on Excel eventually copped on to the nil return. So in effect they have a database of addresses of who is or is not a Catholic despite obtaining nobody's permission to amass this data.

One of my abiding memories of my enforced churchgoing days is the WHOOOOOSH of vast quantities of coins being emptied from the baskets into a trolley. This was in one of the poorest parishes in Dublin in the 80s where many lived in real poverty but were still pressured to give what they couldn't really afford.

In the early 90s a friend of mine had a Catholic girlfriend from Northern Ireland for a while. Her parish had "silent collections" so the minimum donation was £5.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820108#Comment_120820108

They got consent. I'll pretty much guarantee it was specific informed and written - as well as effective.

There are cases where the consent was given, but the person moved house since. You cannot blame the church, charity etc for continuing to act on information they were given. All you have to do is contact them and say that you've moved in and don't want to receive whatever they're sending. They'll stop once the correction is made: they have no interest in wasting money sending things to people who don't want 'em.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820662#Comment_120820662

Nope they have a database of envelope givers. That is all.

Some donors use cash, or direct debit. Some envelope givers are not actually <<whatever religion>> but give anyway for reasons only known to themselves. (Yes, it really happens.)

martinedwards

To claim the tax back (in the church of Ireland...in the North) you need to fill in a form with your name address National insurance number and statas that you wish to have the tax reclaimed.

this can only be done if there is a record kept of donations. either by envelopes or by standing order.

at the AGM there is a financial statement and the donation sheet without names is produced. This is actually important as the contributors can confirm the amount that they have donated and any discrepancies followed up.

Jellybaby_1

AndrewJRenko, reading the above replies, I believe your questions have been answered more than once. You are not involved in a parish so I don't think you need to be worried unless you are receiving envelopes from your parish if you haven't given consent.

Peregrinus

There;s a timing issue here.

The numbered envelope system was in use long before either GDPR or tax refunds came along; it wasn't specifically devised to with either of these things in mind. It was more an aid to basic bookkeeping, so there would be a record of who contributed what. You need this kind of things, if only as a safeguard against theft of unrecorded donations.

To claim a tax refund, it's not enough to know that the envelopes numbered 1234 were delivered to house X, so that donations in those envelopes came from the residents of that house. You need the name(s) and PPS number(s) of the taxpayer(s) who live in that house, and who gave that money. So parishes/congregations wishing to participate in the refund scheme would have to go the residents and ask for that information, and in that context would pretty certainly explain why they were asking for it. Unless they misrepresented the position about why they wanted the information and what they intended to do with it, I can't see that they'd have any problems under GDPR. New members of the parish/congregation, when signing up for envelopes, would get the same information. Most likely there will be information/guidance from the diocese or other central organisation about what needs to be done and how to do it.

Parishes/congregations are largely run by voluntary labour and standards of administration are a bit variable, so it's possible that there will have been instances where things were not done properly. But I don't see any reason to think there will have been systemic failure.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820724#Comment_120820724

Will you guarantee it though? How would you be in a position to guarantee it, unless perhaps you've seen the paperwork and forms used by multiple parishes to give you that kind of comfort? Can you guarantee that they have developed and maintained ROPAs to guide their data protection approaches? Can you guarantee that they restrict records of donations appropriately, given their reliance on volunteers and unstructured activities?

Jellybaby_1

And now, I'm out!