Expected EV battery life

martinedwards

I love the idea of not polluting as I drive.

I have 2 cars. One is a Diesel 4x4 to tow the caravan. One is an elderly VW fox petrol which is cheap to insure and my daughter is learning to drive in (both manual of course!)

long term.... has anyone had an EV long enough to notice the battery degradation that the naysayers talk about?

has anyone ever actually NEEDED to replace the batteries?

I haven't bought a new car in 30 years and have no intention of starting now, so I'm concerned about buying a 5 year old EV and then needing to spend the same amount again to replace the batteries.

and realistically, could I tow a twin axle caravan from Belfast to Sligo without a recharge stop?

thanks for your wisdom!

celtic_oz

long term.... has anyone had an EV long enough to notice the battery degradation that the naysayers talk about?

not all EVs are the same, some degrade faster

has anyone ever actually NEEDED to replace the batteries?

some have .. just like engines in ICE cars

I haven't bought a new car in 30 years and have no intention of starting now, so I'm concerned about buying a 5 year old EV and then needing to spend the same amount again to replace the batteries.

warranties are 7-8 years

and realistically, could I tow a twin axle caravan from Belfast to Sligo without a recharge stop?

Model Y / EV6 can do 1600KG about 200KM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hJJSyHoKF0

munchkin_utd

>and realistically, could I tow a twin axle caravan from Belfast to Sligo without a recharge stop?

the issue with a caravan isnt having to stop, its the logistics of how do you get a car with caravan attached physically near enough a charger point to charge it. You cant park at a standard charging bay and have a caravan sticking out behind you 3m blocking the road - if you even fit in the first place.

Realistically you will need to take up a parking space (or slightly more than one) with your caravan, if you can even into a carpark, detach the caravan and go and charge the car caravan-less and then go back and pick up the caravan again. And do that every 200km.

In fairness..... I have come across a small number of "petrol station forecourt" style charging stations in the past while so if those get expanded theres a hope, but of course the apps will all need to be adjusted to allow people to plan to go to caravan friendly charging stations.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120743032#Comment_120743032

The issue at the moment is that there is no real capacity in Ireland to repair EVs batteries so in most cases if a battery goes awry, it a new one and a very expensive job out of warranty.

The EV community counter this by arguing that once we have sufficient batteries out of warranty, then the market will respond and back street garages will tool up and fix them at a reasonable cost.

I've have no reason to doubt this assertion but atm it's the future so no telling when such capacity will be available. No doubt this will be a nagging concern for people contemplating buying used EVs 5 to 6 years old with well on the wrong side of 100k kms on them as, if they go wrong it could for most people be a prohibitively expensive experience. IMO current used EV prices don't reflect this risk and many people are buying them on the back of the sales pitch that EVs have fewer mechanical parts so are far more reliable. The problem elephant in the room is the battery which could, at this point in time, be prohotively expensive to repair. Now the risk is probably low so maybe OK to ignore and just throw the dice.

creedp

One other thing, as I'm not being anti EV here, is that towing with an EV is very inconvenient if you have to fast charge during your journey. Most EV spaces do not facilitate this requiring you to uncouple your trailer to access the charge spot.

ELM327

Dont buy a leaf.

Then, from my own personal EV experience.

Leaf 24 - owned for 13 months and covered 60k km, 89% SOH when selling (11% degradataion)

Ioniq 28 - owned for 12 months covering 50k km, 100% SOH, no deg (This is due to hyundai protecting initial degradation with battery cooling and excess spare capacity)

Tesla Model S - Owned for ~18 months covered 75k km - sold with 10% degradation with just under 200k km on the clock. Still had real world range of 275km or more

Tesla Model X - Owned for 2 months covered 10k km- sold without change in range

Second Ioniq 28 - Owned for 12 months covered 50k km - 100% SOH - sold without change in range, 140k on the clock from memory

Tesla Model 3 LFP - Owned for 9 months from new covered 30k km - no change in range from new.

RoboRat

Like yourself, I never bought a new car in my life. It never made sense financially. I bit the bullet and ordered a new MG4 this year and I'm due for delivery in the next week or so.

I like the idea of reducing my emissions and doing my part, but I will be honest and say it was more about the financial aspect that made my mind up. My current jammer is an 08 2.0L diesel with 330,000km on the clock. It's getting to the point where it will be a money pit. I needed to change and when I calculated the annual running costs, it costs around €4,200 a year to run my current car (Diesel, tax, insurance, maintenance). With the current used car market, I would be looking at around €15k to get anything decent (2015/2016) and I would still have to pay for the diesel, extra tax (not as much - perhaps €100 more p/a than the EV tax), maintenance - the insurance would probably be comparable.

Last year I got solar panels and they are a great investment so a lot of my charging will be done from the excess I'm generating. Even if I powered solely off the grid, I'm looking at €35 p/m for charging my car to do the same mileage that I'm paying €260 in diesel to do. Tax is minimal, as is servicing, and I am getting lower insurance costs - adding all of this up, it just made sense.

I was apprehensive and also doubted the batteries, but when I actually looked into it in detail, the batteries are not such an issue - if you mind them they will last (no different to an ICE engine!). They are also far better than what they were 10 years ago. The range wasn't an issue because, in reality, I might travel over 250km once or twice a year. I got my charger installed so now I have the EV equivalent of a fuel pump outside my front door - this will also save me money because any time I stop in a garage, I usually spend another €6-€8 on coffee, treats for the family and so forth.

I think the question you need to ask yourself is whether it suits you. Belfast to Sligo is about 220km and most EVs will not be able to pull a caravan without stopping. However, how often do you do this journey? Perhaps enduring the recharge stop is worth the overall benefit you get throughout the year. Would a rental be an option if you do it once, or twice a year? Perhaps keep the 4x4 and sell the fox for an EV, and do most of your driving with the EV. Perhaps you could look at renting an EV for a holiday and seeing if it suited you.

There are many options, you just need to figure out what suits you and whether it makes sense. EVs make a lot of sense, but they may not be suitable for some.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120743090#Comment_120743090

100k km is an ICE measure.

Red Silurian

Most people say at the moment that the battery will outlast the car

Currently there is an iron based battery in some of the Tesla Model 3's and I believe also in the BYD range, commonly called LFP batteries. These batteries, on paper, will last much longer than the cobalt batteries that are much more readily available although we won't obviously know the real life status for a few years

RoboRat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120743699#Comment_120743699

MG4 standard range has an LFP battery. The long-range and exclusive models have a Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt (NMC) battery.

slave1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120743699#Comment_120743699

The current Tesla RWD models are the excellent chem LFP batteries, they will last a lot longer than their counterparts.

To OP, unless you can buy a nearly new Model Y then an EV is not currently for you with the criteria listed

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120743357#Comment_120743357

Didnt realise kms don't apply to EVs

slave1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120743997#Comment_120743997

He means you don't need to think of range having the same impact on a battery as an ICE engine, battery degradation is more aligned to passing of time rather than kms travelled

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120744024#Comment_120744024

I know what he means but what discount would you apply to a used €40k priced EV with say 150k kms covered (only 10k km of warranty left) compared to an identical one with 80k km covered or would you just think sure distance covered or lack of warranty has no impact on EVs.

Reality is said poster is an experienced EV owner and knows what he's doing. Can't compare that case to a prospective EV owner buying a used EV for the first time at this point in time

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120744069#Comment_120744069

The only difference between 99k and 100k km is in loss of perceived value due to folks like yourself who are used to that being the poit where ICE cars drop value, which came from a time yonder when cars didnt last longer than 100k *miles*

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120744569#Comment_120744569

I've no problem with you making assumptions about my opinions. My post mentioned well north of 100k km to attempt to highlight the approaching 160k km warranty period expiry. If you think it mugh be less confusing I'll substitute 120k km for 100k km.

Not every discussion on EVs has to be somehow related back to a comparison with ICEs

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120743991#Comment_120743991

Again I refer to my "on paper" note

The chemistry hasn't been tested in the real world over 10 years for obvious reasons but as an owner of such a vehicle I hope you are right :)

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120744666#Comment_120744666

Of course, warranty remaining would indeed have an effect. I'm not denying that at all, nor am I attempting to use "people like you" as some sort of derogatory comment merely a classification.

What I'm saying is, all things being equal (and all warranties expired) people still place value on sub 100k km in EVs when it makes no difference.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058301767/truth-lol-on-ev-battery-life

In terms of battery pack failtures. Only US data.

https://www.businessinsider.com/electric-car-battery-models-replaced-most-often-nissan-tesla-2023-3

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120744984#Comment_120744984

Li-ion batteries with LiFePO4 cathode (aka "LFP") are indeed thoroughly tested in the real world. The LFP cells have been used in all sorts of applications and are estimated to degrage 2 to 4 times slower than NMC (Nickel Managenese Cobalt cathode) cells.

New Tests Prove: LFP Lithium Batteries Live Longer than NMC - OneCharge

LiFePO4 Battery Lifespan (naturesgenerator.com)

Benefits of Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries (LiFePO4) (super-b.com)

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120743310#Comment_120743310

Just wondering but are you buying the mg4 cash or loan?

If it’s loan surely you have to factor in the monthly repayments cost when comparing the financial point of view.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120745441#Comment_120745441

Have they been tested long term in Electric Cars though?

On paper it shouldn't be an issue obviously

As for the least reliable battery needing to be replaced in less than 5% of cases that can only be a good thing

RoboRat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120745615#Comment_120745615

I'm getting a loan and I accounted for this in my calculations.

The loan is €32,000 @ 5.64% - total cost is €36,602 over 5 years with running costs of circa €600 p/a

€15k loan @ 7.76% would cost €18,034 over 5 years with running costs of circa €4,000 p/a

Total for new ev over 5 years is €39,602

Total for used ice over 5 years is €38,034

Realistically, my ev will cost less to run as I'm basing my costs off 100% grid power, and I'll probably be powering via solar for 5-6 months a year.

I'm also paying off the loan for the solar panels by adding the remaining balance to the ev loan; the ev rate is 1.2% lower than what I'm currently paying, so it's saving money. I would be paying more if I combined it with the standard car loan.

Overall, it's working out cheaper and I get a new car, rather than a 6-7 year old.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120746234#Comment_120746234

Check your credit union for an "eco" or "green" loan, you should get a better rate

RoboRat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120746408#Comment_120746408

That is a credit union loan, best rate I could find by a good margin.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120745091#Comment_120745091

Agree once all warranties are expired then very little difference between a sub 100k km and one with over 160k kms. At present however if considering buying a 4 year old EV with say 80k or120k kms, I would expect most people would consider paying a premium for the former because for the average driver it will have double the battery warranty period remaining.

Apologies if my response seemed prickly but IMO for the non initiated, the battery is still the great unknown when it comes to considering EVs and until EVs are more mainstream many, including myself, will place a possibly undue emphasis on remaining battery warranty both in terms of duration and kms remaining

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120745091#Comment_120745091

Nah don't agree

A small EV like the ID3 are the weight of transit vans, sub 100k and 160k+ on similar roads will have different suspension wear and rattles, same for battery, drive train, bearings etc they all degrade with use. Under similar conditions, the significantly less used machine will be better

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748042#Comment_120748042

There are much less moving parts, even the brakes etc get used less than a normal car. Suspension parts would be one I'll cede to you on but sure thats a standard job any mechanic can do.

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748066#Comment_120748066

Yeah i'll give you it's less of an issue than ICE alright, especially a diesel, with that big engine up the front, but I still don't agree its not an issue, when the cars don't weight close to 2000kg in 5 - 10 years time, I would fully agree with you.

Orebro

Owner of a 10 year old Leaf here, and no intention of moving on from it. One capacity bar gone so hovering around the 85% battery health I guess.

People that say batteries need replacement or degrade beyond use after a small number of years either don't know what they're on about or are full of BS.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748498#Comment_120748498

Indeed. There's a 2015 leaf with 345000 km on clock for sale at donedeal and even that has still 9/12 capacity bars remaining. It would have fully paid for itself a long time ago and is still going. The bodywork seems to have also stand the test of time well.

https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/nissan-leaf-24kw/34087640

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748984#Comment_120748984

Probably a bit high on price but good to see the car still kicking about