Tracing Lineage and Hitting a Brick Wall

TracingWalls

Hello All,

First off, I am excited to be a part of this site and the possible discussions taking place.

I am looking for information on my ancestor and hoping to connect to my Irish roots more strongly. Here is what I know so far about my Irish Ancestor:

James Brumlough moved to America in 1854 on the ship The Thornton. He said he left a brother in Ireland that was a priest but the knowledge of his parent's names and brother's name have been lost to history. According to his children he spoke Irish Gaelic as a first language and English second, but was fluent in both. His occupation on the ship manifest was that of a weaver. He always said he moved to America as a young man, and the manifest supports this by saying he as 21 years old. He never said where in Ireland he was from. I went to Ireland in 2022 and talked with a genealogist at length. The genealogist only had an hour to talk, so most of the information found was already what I knew, however, she did say that the name Brumlough (spelled Brumlow now) was definitely a Gaelic name. I went to Dunquin as well and spoke with some very fluent Irish Gaelic speakers who agreed that it must be a Gaelic name. I am confident he is Irish, since during the time saying you were Irish and speaking Irish was not something people bragged about when emigrating. Any and all information is very appreciated and I hope to find more info on him and his family. I am unsure if Brumlough is the true Irish spelling, but according to the ship manifest and an 1880 census in America, it is spelled Brumlough. I do know that in historical Irish history, the first son is named after the Father's Father's name, which in this case would be John. The second son is named after the Mother's Father's name, which is George, and that information I thankfully have traced back. The mother's name of James I believe would either be Mary, I assume since the first daughter born was named Mary. Please help me find more information. My main goal is to find what county my ancestor was from, but all information is gladly accepted.

I am on GEDmatch as well if that helps.

cobham

A nice challenge! I see a Catherine Brumlow is only one coming up in 1901 census, a widow aged 50 living alone in Armagh.

pinkypinky

Welcome.

Although it cannot be totally relied on, what parts of Ireland does your ethnicity show? Where did you take your original DNA test?

If you're not already doing it, then you should look at matches for people called Brumlough (any spelling, as it was fluid in the past and there would be no one definitive spelling). Also look at matches who are in Ireland now.

You mentioned Dunquin in your post - what made you go there? Is that the Gaeltacht in Kerry?

Using JohnGrenham.com - Brumlough/Brumlow is almost unheard of in Ireland, but there are other spellings shown that you should consider.

TracingWalls

@pinkypinky My 23andMe results showed Mayo and Dublin as the most likely counties. I have been trying to figure out the GED matches, but have not truly dived into them.

We went to Dunquin almost by accident as we were staying in Dingle and just exploring the area. All the signs were in Irish Gaelic and the locals there spoke it frequently around and to us.

The most common variants of Brumlow/Brumlough I can find are Bromlow/Bromlough, Brumley, Bromilow, and Brownlow.

I dont have an ancestry subscription anymore, but I did save a source in my shoebox that shows a boy named James Burnley living in Antrim in 1851 at the age of 13 and with no other family members. From the fact his brother was a priest perhaps he was living alone due to their parents death and the brother leaving for seminary. Im just not sure if Burnley is a valid variant of Brumlow/Brumlough. Then again with a northern Irish accent maybe they sound similar and an English census taker just spelt it the way he thought he should?

pinkypinky

Yes, that's why I mentioned John Grenham's site because I wondered about variants. Brownlow is more common and agree it could be misheard easily. I'd associate it with the north of Ireland.

Just fyi, we say Irish for the language. No need to add Gaelic.

I think it would be worthwhile doing an Ancestry DNA test when budget allows because they have a much larger database of users.

Mick Tator

Priests were important, so their records were kept, sFo the priest is the key to your research.Start with him, then work sideways/backwards and forwards. Guessing about names and Dunquin is a distraction. I’ve never encountered the Brumlough surname (I guess most here have not either) and I’d be slow to assert it was Irish. Follow the cloth!

TracingWalls

@Mick Tator I do agree, I reached out to the Maynooth Seminary and they did not have a record of any Brumlough or variants studying there. The name itself may have come from another country, but I'm certain he was Irish. There wouldnt be any reason for him to say he wasn't Irish, especially during the time and the fact he spoke Irish means his family must have been Irish as well for long enough to make it a common act to teach it to their children. I dont think during the 1800s he would have just learned Irish for the fun of it, especially since English was more common. But, I do wonder if the name may be from another Gaelic speaking country in origin. I dont have any idea where the brother studied, but is there a common database for all of Ireland? Or should I start asking seminaries in areas that my DNA gave as possible matches like Mayo and Dublin?

VirginiaB

Just adding my two cents. I think the best next step is doing Ancestry's DNA test, as was already suggested. You can then see shared matches on the appropriate parent's side and also search for variants on that name. They also give a general idea of what part of Ireland your ancestors were from.

If you found him in the US, have you searched all associated with him there? His naturalization witness is often helpful as they are often relatives or friends from home (Ireland). The death cert is vital, if available. Research any other names on it. Find out where he was buried--should be on the death cert. Then call the cemetery and ask who bought the grave and when and their address. Research everyone in the grave. Hopefully, they can provide that info. Also look for a newspaper death notice.

Where was he married? Look for that record, church and state, and again, research wife and witnesses. In sum, there is so much more to do in the US to help you make a successful leap across the ocean.

One last thing, as others have said, be very generous with the spelling of the name. I have had luck with John Grenham's hint to 'leave out all the vowels'--and much else besides. Slow but I have struck gold. Good luck!

TracingWalls

@VirginiaB Thank you, I do need to do the ancestry DNA test soon.

I did not think about the naturalization specialist but he was married in the US. I have not found a marriage certificate yet unfortunately. He was married to a Nancy Ingram in 1870 in TN. Also he was given a small unmarked plot by the Clift family, most likely at Soddy Presbyterian Church. He seemed to live in Sequatchie County for the most part. I will continue to look for these lost pieces of information.

pinkypinky

https://clericus.ie/ is the clergy database hosted by Maynooth. Try all your variants in that.

My instinct is that he will have come from Ulster.

TracingWalls

@pinkypinky You mentioned Ulster as a hunch and believe it or not, my Y-DNA haplogroup is I-M223 which supposedly is very concentrated in Ulster. I have read multiple sources saying that the I-M223 haplogroup for males signifies Celtic ancestry and can help pin-point regions of ancestral descendance. One such website is the (irishorigenes .com / content / dna-irish-gael) website (sorry I cant post links yet due to the age of my account). I am currently checking the clericus website to no avail but there are many variants I need to enter.

TracingWalls

To all those following this board:

I know it is a long shot, and probably a dead end BUT, I used AI to help me find out what the possible Irish equivalent would be for Brumlow / Brumlough. It popped out Ó Brumloch, Ó Brúmloch, Ó Brúmlach, Ó Broimhleó, or Ó Broimhleóir as possible variations. Granted this is AI technology, and not the best option, but it does search the web and help with searching. I plugged these into Google and received no results.

Has anyone ever heard of these variations before? Is it even a thread worth untangling and going down this rabbit hole for?

Mick Tator

Skimmed through this thread again.

I would not relay on AI for anything genealogical.

English was the official language in Ireland in the 1800’s and Irish never was used in records – it was prohibited.

You say he spoke Irish c1850. That means he was a ‘native speaker’, i.e. it was the language spoken in the home and his community. At that date Irish was not taught, on the contrary, it was discouraged. We always say “Irish”, but in Scotland the language is referred to as ‘Gaelic’. In the northern part of Ireland particularly around Co. Antrim they had a variant known as ‘Ulster Irish’.

If his brother was a RC priest in that era the family had money as fees had to be paid. (Google “Maynooth Grant”.) There were other seminaries in Ireland in the 1800’s - e.g. Killarney, Tipperary/Thurles, and the Jesuits also had intake. I’m unsure of their dates of operation. Some priests also studied abroad, France – St. Omer, Belgium – Louvain/Leuven, Spain – Salamanca. However, mostly they studied in Ireland and any study abroad by a select few generally followed a period at a college in Ireland..

It is unusual IMO that the brother of a priest would convert to / be buried in a Presbyterian cemetery. Yes, some did convert to Anglican/Unitarian/whatever sects to ‘fit in’ but it was very uncommon.

TracingWalls

@Mick Tator
I also think it is unusual he was buried in a Presbyterian cemetery. It is assumed that the plots were given to him and his wife by the family he worked for as they were quite fond of him, they were the Clift Family. I have checked the Maynooth records and no "Brumlow" or "Brumlough" last names have been found in my own search. This is what really stumps me. Then again it could be that the brother was a priest of a different denomination.

pinkypinky

I wouldn't rely on AI either. As Mick says, you won't find it in the records.

I hadn't seen before but you mentioned that Irish Origenes website - which is not reliable. If you are a direct Y descendant of that line, you should consider a Big Y test at FamilyTree DNA.

Did you ever take the Ancestry test we recommended?

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120750640#Comment_120750640

Not an expert like most on this forum, just enjoy reading the very interesting posts. I'm wondering if the original name could be Brownlough/Brownlow? When the ships manifest was recorded, if the surname was said in a NI accent, it could sound like Brienlough and a handwritten record of that could look like Brumlough. I've found it very difficult to decipher old handwritten records, it would be easy to read an 'ie' as 'u'. Also, there would have been lots of weavers in the NI linen industry in the 19th century.

The name Brownlough in Scotland:

https://www.houseofnames.com/brownlough-family-crest#Ireland-Migration

Edit: Brownlow research project : https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/brownlow-family-dna-study/about

TracingWalls

@mrslancaster this is very interesting. Unfortunately I don't have an ancestry subscription right now so I cannot look at the handwritten manifest, but it is something I will be looking into. I'm certain James was Irish, but if the name is scottish thay is also something I'd be happy to find out!

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120750640#Comment_120750640

I-M223 is a bit of a broad category, in an Irish and British context it can fall into two categories. One of them seems more associated with the area the Anglo Saxons came from (can't remember the subgroup) and the other seems to have deep links to Britain. The second group is called M284 and there is another more recent sub group of this called L126 that when found in Ireland seems to be associated with people from a plantation background. I fall under this group but I'm not aware of any plantation background, but given all the back and forth between Ireland and Scotland there could be other reasons.

This is also a small group, which can be a blessing in that if you match with someone then you should have it pinpointed or you may have no matches at all. If you tested at Family Tree DNA you might be able to figure out the group you are in based on what groups your close matches fall under.