Conservatory roof

vagdt

Hi all.

Hoping someone might have some experience or advice. We bought a house a couple of years ago and it has a conservatory with a polycarbonate roof at present (the conservatory was built around 2014). Of course the usual complaints with this, as it is boiling in the summer and freezing in the winter. It is being used as a home office, so the space is needed but I'm looking for some advice on getting the roof insulated. I have priced getting the roof completely replaced with a tiled roof and it is roughly 8k for everything. I have also come across a company who insulate the roof and fit uPvc panels and it looks like a tidy job for around 2k. I'm just hoping someone has experience with this option and can they tell me if it is worth it or are the same issue present after getting the work carried out?

Thanks.

raxy

I've just insulated mine using superquilt insulation. Haven't got round to putting the ceiling yet. Thinking of going with wooden panelling.

I did get a quote to have someone else do it but thought it was a bit much. If it's the same company I looked at they use a 7 layer insulation. Superquilt has 19 layers. Was a bit tricky putting it up on my own but will cost a third of what I was quoted.

It is worth it though. It still gets hot/cold but not near what it was before. On a hot day I just need to open some windows or the door & can keep the temp in the low 20's compared to 40 degrees before.

vagdt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120742612#Comment_120742612

That's great, thanks for the information. Funny you say that because I was half thinking about giving it a go myself. I've pretty much renovated the whole house at this stage myself so I would be handy enough. Could you recommend anywhere to buy the insulation? Just for information, did you screw battens to the aluminium beams in the conservatory roof then staple the insulation to the battens and then more battens over the top of the insulation?

raxy

Yes, 2*1 treated battens screwed into the beams using 50mm wood to metal screws. You need to get the screw in the center of the beam or it won't hold.

I used superquilt insulation (5*1.5m) from screwfix & stapled to the battens & used aliminium foil to seal up the gaps. Got an electric stapler from lidl which did the job. I haven't added the extra battens over the insulation yet but that would be the plan when I eventually cover it.

There is superfoil SF19 insulation that comes in 10*1.5m rolls but for the amount I needed it would have cost more so just depends what size conservatory is.

razor12345

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120742612#Comment_120742612

Hi Raxy, could you put up some pics please. Im interested in get a cozy roof fitted but the prices were above by budget. Also, do you reckon it will be warm enough in winter?

Cheers

raxy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120810730#Comment_120810730

Here's some pics.

Will have to wait & see how it is over winter. It will still get cold but hopefully not as cold as before as cold as before & it will hold the heat better.

We've a radiator there so hopefully on a cold day that will make it useable.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120814799#Comment_120814799

That kinda of insulation is know to be not very good. And to actively lie about it's performance. Just FYI

raxy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120816223#Comment_120816223

I looked up a lot before using it. There does seem to be a lot of haters discrediting it but also a lot saying how good its worked for them. I didn't pay much attention to manufacturer claims, read through forums where people discussed using it.

I've had it up about 4 months & it makes a massive difference. The room used to get to 40 degrees on a sunny day, now I can control the heat around 20-25 on hot days. It also doesn't cool down as fast as it used to or get as cold overnight.

I dont know how effective it will be in winter yet but it has been well worth the investment already. I know someone else who put it up & he says the same.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120816515#Comment_120816515

All that proves is that it’s better than having zero insulation. Which obviously is expected.

The bogus claims relates exaggerating its thermal properties. This is simple physics. Thin materials have limits to how much resistance they can provide. That’s objective, not subjective.

They can be useful to insulate a thin space. But need to be lined to cover up the tinfoil look.

raxy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120817208#Comment_120817208

I don't really know what your aim is here. I put it in my sunroom, I am planning to for it with panelling timber but as I said I've not been well lately so I haven't been able to get around to it.

Have you used this insulation or done nay testing to back up what you are saying? A baseless comment to say its not very good? I have it installed & it's made a huge difference, clearly it is beneficial & more than just better than no insulation. It's cheap, easy to install & effective. It's done exactly what I wanted it to do.

Unless you have some evidence other than "it's just physics" I'm not sure why you are posting here.

razor12345

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120814799#Comment_120814799

Many Thanks Raxy for the pics, there very helkpful for me. I will keep an eye on the thread as I'm will probably do similar in the coming months.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820079#Comment_120820079

My aim? Is to provide information to other posters, that's kinda the point of the site in case you were not aware. To claim my comment are "baseless" highlights that you don't know much about insulation, and did minimal research. These issue are wildly know among professionals, and you'll see the criticisms mentioned on here going back 15 years or more. Building lose heat through the fabric, based on the thermal resistance. If you don't understand how that relates to physics, that's not my job to educate you.

The figures quoted by the companies are based on calculation in specific scenarios. Its there job to back up their claims, its not for the public to disprove them. But even their data indicates that you need an air gap. When you fix a lining over it, like you plan to, it is no longer as effective - this is from the manufacturer.

 I have it installed & it's made a huge difference, clearly it is beneficial & more than just better than no insulation. It's cheap, easy to install & effective

Did I suggest it was no benefit and was not better than no insulation. Be a little less dramatic please.

It's cheap, easy to install & effective

Those type of products are promoted by the likes of woodies, and aimed at DIYers. If there were really cheap and effective, wouldn't new home designers and contractors also use them? But they don't, maybe there is a reason for that.

@vagdt @razor12345 consider your options, as they will be limited. Doing anything will be better than nothing of course. But ignore marketing nonsense. In additional locking in heat, be careful about trapping moisture, which is an issue with non-gas permeable sheet materials. Make sure what ever you and fixing to on the existing structure is suitable for fixing to. A lot of people in their ignorance, blindly stick screws into conservatory rafters/beams - unaware that these are a water return path. Essentially 100s of small leaks. Double check the details of your conservatory before going gung-ho with a screw gun.

raxy

What information have you provided? You have made a couple of statements without anything to justify or back it up. If your comments are not baseless then provide some evidence to back up your comments. You saying "Professionals" say its no good is not evidence its your opinion which you can't seem to expand on. There are also professionals offering to insulate sunrooms using this method.

Multifoil insulation is used in new builds. I've passed 2 new build estates recently & noticed both using multifoil insulation in the walls.

Best Insulation For New Builds - SIG

Aluthermo Reflective Insulation – Tradecraft Building Products Ltd | Ireland

I have a degree in science so no, I don't need you to educate me on physics or how insulation works, maybe stick to the topic & leave off condescending & insulting remarks? I can & did do my own research on this & despite seeing a lot of comments from people, such as yourself, saying the insulation is no good I couldn't find anything that backed up that claim. I was satisfied that the insulation would do what I wanted & so far it has so I am sharing my actual experience. I have a calibrated max min thermometer so I can also see the improvement in the 4 months I have this installed.

When I fix the lining over it there will be an air gap, I don't know why you are assuming there won't be. I will cross batten before cladding the roof so there is an air gap above & below the insulation.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/273359526_A_closer_examination_of_the_thermal_performance_of_Multifoil_Insulations

https://www.ecohome-insulation.com/news/case-study-transform-a-warehouse-using-superquilt/

sydthebeat

the problem with these mutilfoil materials stems from their original test results claims of providing U values of 0.2.

when investigated, it was discovered that they did not carry out the "hot box" test properly (they removed certain elements of the construction)

a case was taken by an individual against UK building control when they refused to accept multifoil as a stand alone insulation layer in a ceiling construction.

You suggest that you will have to abort your plans to convert the loft space in your two-bedroom bungalow into a habitable room because of the Council’s rejection of your proposal to use multi-foil insulation as a stand-alone product. You believe that the Council’s insistence that multi-foil insulation should be used in conjunction with rigid board insulation would reduce the headroom clearance to the proposed stair and room to levels below the “regulation limits”, and that only the use of multi-foil insulation would provide both the required headroom and roof structure U-value. 

on investigation the conclusion was as follows (my bold for emphasis)

17. The Council believes that methods for measuring the thermal performance of materials and products should be British Standard tests based on Standardised European Norms or tests to a European Technical Approval (ETA) standard. The values for the thermal performance of insulating products provided by these tests enable the accurate assessment of conformity with the guidance given in Approved Documents L when use of the products is proposed. The Council asserts that comparative testing used by many multi-foil manufacturers to indicate the performance of their product is not covered by any national or European standard, and consequently the results obtained cannot be used to accurately assess conformity with the guidance in the Approved Documents L. 

The Council concluded that, as the thermal performance of YBS SuperQuilt multi-foil insulation had not been assessed using a test method based on Standardised European Norms or tests to a ETA standard, it was unable to determine whether or not the product's use as proposed would show compliance with Requirement L1(a)(i). 

29. Initial research, part funded by this Department’s predecessor, was the subject of a report published in 2005 by BRE Scotland1 . BRE noted that widely differing values had been given for the thermal performance of multi-foil insulation. For example, a TRADA test commissioned by a multi-foil manufacturer had indicated that the thermal performance of multi-foil was equivalent to 200mm of mineral (glass) wool insulation. This was a comparative test that contrasted two insulation systems, but did not provide any actual U-values and was not carried out in accordance with any agreed standard. In contrast, a laboratory “hot-box” test carried out for another manufacturer by the National Physical Laboratory (NPL) to the British, European and international standard BS EN ISO 8990 had indicated that the thermal performance of multi-foil was only about one-third of that given by TRADA’s comparative test. (Comparative tests carried out later by CIM at Sheffield Hallam University on another manufacturer’s multi-foil product indicated that its thermal performance in an enclosure replicating a roof space was equivalent to 270mm of glass wool insulation.) 

Professor Eames calculated the U-value of a typical roof construction insulated with multi-foil and compared it with the U-value of the same roof insulated with mineral wool – in effect modelling the comparative tests carried out by TRADA and CIM. To do the calculations, Professor Eames assumed values for reflectivity (which is independent of thickness) and thermal resistance (which is dependent on thickness) corresponding to bright aluminium foil and foam layers respectively. To determine the best possible system performance that could be achieved using the best materials currently available, he repeated the calculations for multi-foil comprising polished silver foil and aerogel layers. The predicted Uvalues were: • 200mm mineral wool (no reflective backing): 0.17 to 0.19 W/m2 K • 100mm mineral wool (no reflective backing): 0.33 to 0.34 W/m2 K • Multi-foil – typical (aluminium foil and foam): 0.35 to 0.50 W/m2 K • Multi-foil – best possible (silver foil and aerogel): 0.23 to 0.27 W/m2 K Professor Eames therefore calculated that the predicted thermal performance of typical multi-foil material is worse than that of 100mm of mineral wool insulation; and even if made from silver foil and aerogel, it is worse than that of 200mm of mineral wool insulation. 

38. Consequently, following the conclusion reached in paragraph 34 above, the Secretary of State hereby determines that the plans of your proposed building work, relating to the use of multi-foil insulation in the proposed roof construction, are not in conformity with Requirement L1(a)(i) in Part L (Conservation of fuel and power) of Schedule 1 to the Building Regulations 2000 (as amended).  

hope the link below works:

https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20120919122719/http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/planningandbuilding/pdf/1745517.pdf

so really, they dirtied their bib when they originally came out by simply lying about their insulation properties.

as to its benefit in a roof construction, if you covered your ceiling in tin foil youd get a marginal insulation benefit, but you wouldnt do it when you consider the alternative options.

as of right now, i dont know of any multifoil product that has NSAI (IAB) certification. if someone knows, please post.

Across the water, YBS has BBA certification for multi foil for their 'superquilt' product (17/5388)

This product has a thermal resistance of 1.35 m2KW. This is comparable to 60mm of standard "44" roll fibreglass. Please note that when compressed (at points of fixing, down to 7mm) the resistance drops to 0.23 m2KW, which is comparable to 10mm of fibreglass.

note that this is a 42mm thick product as its stands.

typically a roll of superquilt will cost €118 (currently in screwfix) for 7.5 sq m. (€15.70 per m2)

a roll of 100mm loft roll 44 will cost you approx €60 for 14 sq m (€4.28 per m2)

so is multifoil worth 3 times the price for what is actually slightly lesser insulation value.......

ive always said its just an expensive vapour barrier.

raxy

None of that is really relevant for insulating a conservatory roof. I did see comments about the testing & false claims which did put me off it initially but then I read so many positive reviews from people who used it for their sunroom, including someone I know personally, which convinced me to give it a go. It's going to cost me €6-700 when I if/eventually finish it. In comparison to the cost to put a solid roof on the room it is significantly cheaper, 100mm loft roll isn't relevant as its not suitable. I got a quote for a solid roof & it was ~5500.

I did consider using 25mm PIR board instead but decided to go with the foil insulation as thought it would be easier.

As I've said it's been very effective since I've had it up. I can now use a room that I couldn't before, I can maintain temperature there between 20-25 on the hottest days when before it would be 40+ degrees. It stays warmer into late evening whereas before it would get cold as soon as the sun wasn't shining on it. It has reduced the heat in the rest of the house as well so the whole house is more comfortable on hot days. Would a vapour barrier have the same effect as that? I don't know but I'm happy with what I have done & would recommend it to anyone looking to do the same.

razor12345

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120852316#Comment_120852316

Hi Raxy, how do you find the colder months after the insulation? Im still considering it here.

raxy

I'm really happy with it.

It still gets cold out there but not nearly as bad as before. It has an uninsulated concrete floor & walls so I wasn't expecting it to be amazing but it's definitely been worth it.

When the sun's out the room warms up nicely (or if we use the tumble dryer thats in it) & hold the heat until late in the evening. Winter before as soon as the sun went in the heat was gone.