Ouch to 42k

Lumen

Managed to grab a late place to DCM 2023 so I may as well lay out my madness for all to see.

I'm approaching 50, sedentary for the past few years other than an a couple of months of post-festive indoor cycling every year, and starting to worry about long term health consequences if this continues.

I'm not naturally athletic and have never run with any seriousness before, but I did a HM aged 18 without training in 1:42 and ran a 5 min mile on track around the same time. I'd love to beat that HM time thirty years later.

Cycle commuted for 10 years and did a couple of seasons of packfill racing. Got a lab test in 2012 which suggested a VO2Max of 62mL/kg/min @ 10% body fat, but I'm decade older and 7kg fatter now so I doubt I'll see those numbers again.

I started running at the end of March '23, did 3 weeks of couch to 5k (28:01) then started steadily building the easy runs up to 16km before I got a hernia three weeks ago (probably from lifting weights). 

Have carried on running and cycling with a DIY hernia belt and park run times have continued dropping steadily down to 21:41 last Saturday with super shoes.

Surgery is scheduled for next Tues (27 June) so the prep for my first marathon will start a few weeks late, and is obviously heavily contingent on a well-managed recovery.

So, here's the plan. It's roughly based on the boards variant of the Hal Higdon novice plan, except with mid-week long runs and a few park runs for fun. The long runs have to build later due to surgery recovery but I'm leaving time for taper madness.

I'm going to attempt this on three runs a week with another three cycling (prob 4 hours cycling in total). I would possibly be faster without the cycling but it's summer and I'll cut back if I'm too fatigued, similarly with the park runs.

I have no objective other than make it to the day uninjured and then enjoy the day out. Running is fun.

ClashCityRocker

That's a good improvement in your 5k time between March and now - good luck with operation and fingers crossed a speedy recovery

Lumen

Did the Clonee 10k last night. Really well run race and nice course, loads of space for everyone to find their own pace.

Managed 46:00 dead which I'm happy enough with at this stage, 3:47 faster than Clondalkin a month ago.

I ran it fairly conservatively as I didn't want to aggravate the hernia (surgery booked next Tues), so pegged SPM above 180 and HR below 170 until the 8km mark.

Looking at the pace chart I slowed quite a bit in the middle (touching 5m/km), I suspect that was due to the heat (around 18C) causing HR drift which made me back off.

Murph_D

Good luck with surgery. Rest well and careful with the return. At 50 you have loads of time, no need to push it for now.

Lumen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120757576#Comment_120757576

Thanks Murph, you're dead right. I have adjusted my expectations and plan and will let the body (and surgeon) tell me what it's able for.

Kellygirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120752633#Comment_120752633

Well done in Clonee. Best of luck with the op on Tuesday.

Lumen

Tue: surgery and hard drugs.

Weds, Thu: lying on the sofa trying not to cough or sneeze.

Fri: 4km walk @ 80bpm.

Sat: 6km walk @ 84bpm.

Sun: 8km walk @ 120bpm.

The hills around my house are normally a curse for running, but right now they're a blessing. I'm under strict doctors orders to not lift anything, run, swim or cycle, but I'm allowed to walk as much as I like and I've discovered that I can hit Z2 walking uphill.

Feeling better every day. Literally onwards and upwards 😀

Lumen

After the roaring start a few days after surgery, the wheels came off somewhat. I became increasingly tired and uncomfortable probably as the scar tissue was forming, and decided to take a break until I was feeling better.

I also read some horror stories about people starting running again too soon.

So two weeks of snoozing on painkillers, couple of light walks then this weekend I tried again.

6km on Saturday and 15km on Sunday, felt great. The 15km (3hr) hill walk was actually harder on my feet and lower legs than the 16km (1hr40) run I did recently, which is interesting. I guess "time on feet" is really a thing.

I'm trying to avoid thinking about the marathon. There's just no point until I get the all-clear to start running, which is probably three weeks away still. Be grand!

Lumen

8.5 hours/41.5km of hillwalking this week, Thurs, Sat & Sun, with 1600m-ish of altitude.

Today was tough going on the legs as it's the first time I've attempted back-to-back 16km walks so I'm hoping it's toughening me up for the long runs to come.

Switched to a pair of Asics Trabuco which have better heel lock than my road runners and incredible grip on wet slippy rocks, although the Goretex is no match for this Irish summer - I had to stop to pour water out of them on Thurs eve.

Probably only another couple of weeks until I can start running again but weirdly I'm feeling less impatient now the end is in sight.

Lumen

Today was tough going on the legs as it's the first time I've attempted back-to-back 16km walks so I'm hoping it's toughening me up for the long runs to come.

Yeah, or....it could have totally banjaxed my hip 😂

Passed one month since hernia surgery, so figured it's time to try some indoor cycling and gentle flat trail running. High impact and long runs are the thing I need to avoid for the next couple of weeks.

So this week comprised:

Tues: 30 mins indoor cycling.

Weds, Fri: 6k hill walk

Sat, Sun: 6k easy trail run.

Total moving hours: 3:50.

The running hasn't made the hip worse although I now also have a weird bit of extensor tendinitis on the right foot, but I'll see what the next week brings before I bother with a physio visit. The foot is probably just a weird compensation injury from trying to forefoot run to reduce impact.

Plan for the next week is more regular short, easy runs and indoor cycling. No more walking!

Have signed up for the Frank Duffy 10 Mile on 19 August, might get a couple of longer runs in before then if everything feels right.

93 days to DCM 🤣

Lumen

I now also have a weird bit of extensor tendinitis on the right foot, but I'll see what the next week brings before I bother with a physio visit. The foot is probably just a weird compensation injury from trying to forefoot run to reduce impact.

No, you idiot, you tightened your laces on one shoe when you got heel rub on a walk.

Fixed with "ladder lacing" / "Lydiard lacing". 8km this morning with no pain. Just the hip now...

Sources:

https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/straightbarlacing.htm

https://runnersconnect.net/how-to-lace-your-running-shoes/

https://www.outsideonline.com/health/running/training-advice/injury-prevention/injuries-that-arent-injuries/

Lumen

5 weeks post-surgery brings my first proper week of running, although I'm still easing my way back into it.

Mon: 8km @ 6:30/km, 140bpm

Tue: 10km @ 6:34/km, 140bpm

Wed: rest.

Thu: 16km @ 6:19/km, 149bpm

Fri: 30 min indoor cycling @ recovery.

Sat: rest.

Sun: 10km @ 6:17/km, 150bpm

Total running: 44km over 4 runs, all fasted.

Niggles at start of week: left hip pain from hillwalking (under control but bad again after the long run on Thurs), extensor tendinitis on the right foot.

Niggles at end of week: not much, skin on feet is a bit sore and toes are randomly bleeding. Need better socks.

HR is about 10bpm too high at my regular easy run pace (6:00-6.30/km @ 140bpm), which is either loss of fitness or because I haven't completely recovered from the surgery. Can't be arsed to run even slower and hoping that it settles naturally over the next week or so.

I'm ahead of my plan but going by feel. Looking forward to resuming cycling to help sort out the niggles but bending over is still too sore for that.

Would be nice to hit a couple more longish runs before the Frank Duffy 10 mile on the 19 August.

Lumen

A week of medium-long runs as I attempt to gracefully hop on to the marathon training conveyor belt without falling on my arse.

Mon: rest

Tue: 18km @ 6:20/km, 146bpm. Couple of clif bloks towards the end.

Wed: rest

Thu: 15km @ 6:21/km, 144bpm, fasted.

Fri: rest

Sat: 15km @ 6:40/km, 145bpm, fasted.

Sun: 6km @ 6:50/km, 123bpm, fasted.

Total running: 54km over 4 runs. First ever week over 50k, w00t!

Niggles at start of week: left hip, two bleeding toes.

Niggles at end of week: left hip, one bleeding toe.

Saturday felt harder although it was hotter (23C with little shade, I'm on hols in Slovenia, lovely place).

HR is still a little high but starting to come under control - later in the run I can back off and it drops down, which wasn't happening last week.

Planning one last medium-long run tomorrow before backing off in the run up to the Frank Duffy 10 miler next Saturday.

Hopping on to an 18 week marathon training plan at week 6 whilst recovering from surgery is, of course, foolish, but if I can't set a good example then at least I can serve a terrible warning.

I'll start posting in the novices thread in a week or so once I'm officially out of the recovery period and am allowed to start running 🤣

Lumen

Mid-week update to gather thoughts.

Mon: 16km @ 6:40/km, 139bpm. Felt tired so wolfed a pack of clif blocks at the top of the first hill, then fine.

Tue: rest

Wed: 5k incl. 10 mins @ 4:29/km.

Today was an attempt to see where my aerobic fitness was after weeks of no running and 2 months since my last race (Clonee 10k, 46 min), so I can choose an appropriate pace for the Frank Duffy 10 mile on Saturday.

After a 2k warm up I went out at 4:20/km (5k PB pace) but that dropped quickly to average 4:29/km over the 10 minutes. HR climbed to 172bpm, which is about the same as the Clonee 10k except about 5s/km slower. It felt crazy hard though, aerobically and on the calves, I'm normally just holding back and settling in at that point. Maybe it's just fatigue which might be gone by Saturday.

I was going to go for 75min (4:40/km) on Saturday but think I'll wind it back to 80min (4:58/km) and see how that goes, which also means I can chase a balloon!

Lumen

Best laid plans....skipped the Frank Duffy as my throat glands were like golf balls. Having not run flat out since June I'm starting to go stir crazy, but....patience.

On the upside I won't need any recovery from Saturday, so can focus now on building the long runs. Have 22km LSR in the plan for this coming week, up from 18km two weeks ago. Excited to be going over 20k for the first time.

I'm dying to do some progression runs up to marathon pace but....more patience.

Total running: 24km over 3 runs.

+1 hour on indoor cycling trainer. Comfortable on that now, so proper cycling can resume.

Lumen

It's been eight weeks since my surgery, and the consultant wanted a full 8 week recovery period, so I guess I'm out of the woods on that now.

I thought I'd write a few things about the experience from a (crap) runner/cyclist's perspective, in case this is ever useful to someone undergoing the same.

There are many stories of people getting out and running/cycling almost immediately after hernia operations. These examples should be studiously ignored. My surgery was full open (rather than laparoscopic) and the hernia quite large, and I think that contributed to the tough recovery. For the first month post-surgery I was in constant discomfort, and although I have a very (physically) soft work-from-home job, when I wasn't working or walking I was laid out. It took me six weeks before I could hold bike handlebars for more than a few minutes, and I'm still not totally back to the cycling.

The problem with walking as substitute for running is that in order to generate any aerobic load you have to go steep uphill and overstride. This is a perfect recipe for injury. One weekend I did over 30k of fast hillwalking and it banjaxed my hip. It's still causing me issues. I could have probably trained for this by starting the hillwalking before my surgery, but who wants to walk when they can run? If I'd have just skipped one of those walks I'd be fine.

Although the first month of recovery was hard, at some point around week 5 I quite suddenly felt much better, and that's when I started running again. It wasn't so much that the discomfort was gone, more that I wasn't feeling constantly drained. Trust your energy levels more than simply what the body feels like. Although the consultant was dead against any running for eight weeks, it felt absolutely fine after a month and I was back up to 16k runs within one week.

I also deviated from the consultant's advice by running right up to before surgery, albeit wearing a DIY hernia solution comprising a stretchy running belt over half a rubber ball in a jam jar lid duck-taped to my abdomen. I do not recommend that, but it was fine and saved me going insane while I was waiting (and I got 5k and 10k PBs!).

Now, on with the marathon training...

Lumen

First properly structured week in my wobble towards DCM.

Mon: sick/rest.

Tue: 11km @ 6.17/km, 147bpm

Wed: 14km incl. 10k @ 5:20/km (PMP)

Thu: 30 mins recovery cycle (am), 11km @ 6:21/km, 140bpm (pm)

Fri: rest

Sat: 2.4 hours cycling @ 136bpm

Sun: 22km @ 6:00/km, 141bpm

Total running: 58km.

Total cycling: ~3 hours.

Total moving time: 8:44.

Niggles at start of week: nothing much.

Niggles at end of week: left achilles.

I felt the achilles after my run on Thurs. This is my first week doing Tue+Wed+Thu and I think the pace run on Weds tightened my calves up and then the easy run on Thu compounded the damage.

I had achilles issues a few months ago and sorted it so I'm doing the same programme of exercises again. The worst thing about it is the (good) exercises create exactly the same burning sensation as the (bad) running damage, but I just have to put faith in what I know works.

No pace run this coming week, keep it easy until the achilles is feeling better.

On a more positive note, great to see the HR on today's LSR well under control despite pace being 20-30s/km faster than my normal easy run pace.

Lumen

Not a good news week.

Mon: rest

Tue: 8km @ 6:27/km, 140bpm. Had planned 10km but had to take stock at about 6 as my right hip was sore. This is new.

Wed: rest, booked physio.

Thu: Ran a few mins before physio appt to confirm hip pain was still there. Physio instructed 2 weeks without running, substituting walking of same duration as planned runs, plus stretching and pilates. Did online pilates class that evening. I've used this physio a number of times before, and he'd normally prescribe continuing training with two broken legs if it would actually work, so I have to adhere to the advice.

Fri: 90 mins stretching and S&C.

Sat: 2.5 hour cycle.

Sun: rest.

Total running: 10km-ish.

So....after another week or so of no running (but plenty of cycling) I'll have 5-6 weeks prep before DCM, with my longest run being 22km up to now. Is it possible? Don't know. 22,24,26,28,30,DCM? I'll have little or no taper time but that's not really the issue, it's whether I can get through those few weeks of long runs without the hip stopping me again.

py

Possible? Yes. Recommened? Probably not.

Any expectations of time would need to be seriously readjusted. ie. a planned 4 hour marathon should drop to something like a 5+hour marathon. Then there is the potential injury as a result of going in half baked. If you had a lot of years running behind you in the run up to the race it would be a different story and could probably scrape by.

DCM or other marathons will be there next year if you decide against running this year.

Lumen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121068404#Comment_121068404

Thanks. There's a few weeks left which will reveal the truth of whether my body can handle it. I'm not about to throw myself into a marathon on the back of a couple of 20k runs!

Annie get your Run

To be honest I'd be asking why you'd want to do it at all. The expression 'respect the distance' is something you'll read a lot on here and while it's not really possible to do that when you've never covered it, it's worth considering seriously. 42KM is a long way, the marathon is a torturous event if you are ill prepared and I'm telling you that from personal experience. It can be hard to walk away especially when you're part of a group like the novices but really I think you'd be mad to do it. 5+ hours is a long time on your feet and for what? You've had surgery, achilles pain, now hip pain with more time off running. Sorry if that sounds very negative but I'd prefer you to enjoy your recovery, get back running fit and take on the next challenge but then, I don't know you so you might decide to jog/walk it in 5+ hours and have a ball!

Will you put your miles run every week since June into an excel sheet and post it here? I think it would be worth looking at in that format 🙂.

Lumen

Thanks for the advice, it's genuinely appreciated.

I don't know you so you might decide to jog/walk it in 5+ hours and have a ball

Nope, if I'm doing it without a time target it'll just be at my normal (recent) easy long run pace of 6min/km, which is what, 4h15 ish?

Will you put your miles run every week since June into an excel sheet and post it here? I think it would be worth looking at in that format 🙂.

How's this?

Date	Distance	Pace
31/08/2023	2.35 km	5:36/km
29/08/2023	8 km	6:27/km
27/08/2023	22 km	6:00/km
24/08/2023	11.49 km	6:21/km
23/08/2023	14 km	5:31/km
22/08/2023	10.77 km	6:17/km
18/08/2023	3.18 km	6:56/km
16/08/2023	5.01 km	5:41/km
14/08/2023	16 km	6:40/km
13/08/2023	6 km	6:50/km
12/08/2023	15 km	6:40/km
10/08/2023	14.56 km	6:21/km
08/08/2023	18.12 km	6:20/km
06/08/2023	10.4 km	6:17/km
03/08/2023	16.01 km	6:19/km
01/08/2023	10.02 km	6:34/km
31/07/2023	8 km	6:30/km
30/07/2023	6.7 km	6:09/km
29/07/2023	6.04 km	6:28/km
22/06/2023	10.09 km	4:34/km
20/06/2023	10.05 km	6:00/km
17/06/2023	5.04 km	4:18/km
17/06/2023	1.24 km	5:25/km
13/06/2023	8.72 km	6:27/km
10/06/2023	5.17 km	5:27/km
07/06/2023	13.32 km	5:18/km
05/06/2023	10.63 km	6:46/km
03/06/2023	5.03 km	4:34/km
03/06/2023	2.58 km	6:38/km
02/06/2023	10.54 km	6:35/km
31/05/2023	8 km	6:28/km
29/05/2023	10.51 km	8:09/km
27/05/2023	5.01 km	4:35/km
25/05/2023	16.06 km	6:19/km
24/05/2023	10.55 km	6:38/km
21/05/2023	10.03 km	4:58/km
17/05/2023	10.55 km	6:32/km
15/05/2023	10.04 km	6:32/km
13/05/2023	13.52 km	6:56/km
10/05/2023	6.02 km	6:15/km
08/05/2023	6.5 km	7:01/km
06/05/2023	13.09 km	6:51/km
01/05/2023	10.99 km	7:21/km
29/04/2023	5.05 km	4:55/km
26/04/2023	6 km	5:58/km
24/04/2023	6 km	6:13/km
22/04/2023	5.04 km	4:55/km
20/04/2023	3.92 km	6:02/km
17/04/2023	6 km	6:25/km
15/04/2023	5.08 km	5:30/km
14/04/2023	5.99 km	6:21/km
12/04/2023	5.93 km	6:43/km
07/04/2023	5.84 km	6:35/km
04/04/2023	4.55 km	7:50/km

^^ weekly distance chart, most recent to the right

Lumen

To be clear though, I'm not actually bothered by this marathon, or any marathon for that matter. It just seemed like an interesting thing to aim for. If the body needs more time and conditioning to be able to do it, then so be it.

My real ambition to just to be able to go out and run for a couple of hours whenever I feel like it, and do regular "races" of 5k up to half marathon for a bit of variety.

MisterJinx

Honestly it sounds like your body is just not ready for DCM this year. Even if you go out at easy pace, 3 hours in you will be feeling it and who knows what injury would result from it. I know it can be hard if you have been targeting something to pull away from it but I wouldn't be recommending it based on the compressed training plan you've had and now additional injury on top of it all.

Of course you can do it, but if you do, my expectation is that you would be walking the last 10k, probably with either your hip or your achilleas in pain. After that experience I don't think you'd go for a marathon again as most I know who've gone that way have had a terrible day and not enjoyed it very much.

Of course it's up to you but if you look at your training volume it is very light with a lot of gaps. It's not ideal at all and you are currently injured and hoping to be on the mend next week. That is a lot of fingers and toes crossed.

Lumen

So I think the proper term for what I have is "gluteal tendinopathy". I found this excellent video on the subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_Kk-XqPWZo

Although I'll be seeing the physio again on Thurs, it looks like the way forward (after the initial recovery period) is short runs no further than the point where discomfort is felt, slowly building up over time, combined with lots of cycling, stretching and S&C. I don't necessarily think I need to run slow - my left hip pain was brought on by hillwalking in July when I wasn't running at all - I think it's pushing the distance and running consecutive days that did it. As something tangible to aim for, I'd like to get back to the point where I can comfortably do a pain-free park run every Saturday with another two runs during the week.

Anyway, this week I did 6 hours of cycling, a kettlebell session, a couple of hours of stretching and calf work and 15 min run today to see how the hips were doing. There weren't any online pilates slots available; I might sign up a personal trainer to give some focus/expertise to the S&C work.

Lumen

W/C 11 Sep. 8km running, 6h50 cycling, 1 physio session, several hours of physio exercises.

The current prescription is to do daily physio exercises and maintain my "time on feet" according to plan, but only run as much as is comfortable and walk the rest. I haven't managed that, although I did manage on Saturday to extend a 5km run with 5km of walking. I hate walking.

The cycling feels like it's really helping the hips, or at least not making it worse. It's also giving me fitness that I can't currently use - my HR was well down on the one proper run I did this week. I guess that'll come in useful eventually, and it's keeping me sane.

Pressure is off for DCM so I'm just plugging away steadily. Goal for the week is to do my 30 mins of S&C exercises every day and get three runs in, whilst keeping overall training load optimal (~6-8 hours excluding walking).

Lumen

W/C 18 Sep. 2 x 5km running, 1h20 cycling, loads of walking and 30 mins physio exercises on 6/7 days.

A low-volume week as COVID struck the household and then I was away on hols with no access to a bike. COVID never seems to get a proper grip on me - I always test negative but usually feel tired for a day or two as it's passing through - but I took extra rest to avoid compromising my immune system.

Still feeling hip pain at 5km in my runs, but will soldier on under physio direction until things improve.